In this episode of the Structure Talk podcast, Ruben Saltzman interviews Dennis Fiorilli, the Director of Product Excellence at Sherwin Williams, about a product called Loxon Concrete Masonry Coating. The conversation revolves around the challenges of painting stucco homes and the traditional belief that stucco should not be painted. Dennis explains that Loxon is a breathable coating designed specifically for stucco and other concrete surfaces. It allows water vapor to escape while preventing water penetration. The discussion also touches on the preparation required before applying the coating, the expected lifespan of the product, and other solutions for paint problems on different types of surfaces.
Takeaways
Loxon Concrete Masonry Coating is a breathable coating designed for stucco and other concrete surfaces.
The coating allows water vapor to escape while preventing water penetration.
Proper preparation, including cleaning and ensuring the substrate is clean, dull, and dry, is essential before applying the coating.
Loxon Coatings are readily available at Sherwin Williams stores throughout the country.
Other solutions, such as oil-based primers for wood siding, can help address paint problems on different surfaces.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Shoutout
01:04 The Challenges of Painting Stucco Homes
05:39 Introducing Loxon Concrete Masonry Coating
08:09 Preparation for Applying Loxon Coating
15:38 The Lifespan of Loxon Coating
18:21 Other Solutions for Paint Problems
25:38 Conclusion and Contact Information
TRANSCRIPTION
The following is a transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be slightly incomplete or contain minor inaccuracies due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Reuben Saltzman: Welcome to my house. Welcome to the Structure Talk podcast, a production of Structure Tech Home Inspections. My name is Reuben Saltzman. I’m your host, alongside building science geek, Tessa Murry. We help home inspectors up their game through education, and we help homeowners to be better stewards of their houses. We’ve been keeping it real on this podcast since 2019, and we are also the number one home inspection podcast in the world, according to my mom.
RS: Welcome back to the Structure Talk podcast. I’m Reuben Saltzman with Structure Tech Home Inspections. Normally, I would have my co-host Tessa on the show here with me today, but we had a scheduling conflict and I’ve got a guest that I booked a long time ago and we did not wanna reschedule this one. So we’re going ahead without Tessa. Tessa, we miss you. See you next week. And I got to give a shout out to our show sponsors, Inspector Empire Builder. They are a coaching peer-to-peer advice group for home inspectors. We got home inspectors who are part of this group from all over the country. We love IEB and we’ve got our next event coming up really soon. We got our next live event on the calendar and this is one of our masterminds.
RS: Always love those. It’s coming up in November and we’ll have a link to IEB in the show notes. But today I’ve got Dennis Fiorilli. He is the director of product excellence at Sherwin-Williams on the show. And I had to do a lot of digging to get to him ’cause, normally a big… You email a big corporation and you don’t even get a response, but they did get back to me. Just had to go through a number of people to get to Dennis. And the reason I’m having him on is because I recently had my house, I’m gonna do air quotes here, “painted with a stucco paint”. And, from my background as a home inspector, I’ve inspected countless stucco homes of varying ages. I’ve seen a lot of stucco houses get painted and then the paint invariably flakes off and you got chunks of paint coming off in sheets all over the place.
RS: It looks terrible. And then I get my clients asking me, well, what do I do with this? And I’ve never had a great solution. Because I mean, how do you scrape stucco? My solution, and this is what I have always been taught, the only solution you have at that point is you sandblast the stucco and you have it re-dashed. And this is a very time consuming, very expensive project. And I’ve had other people who have bought stucco houses where they don’t like the color of stucco and they say, should I paint it? And my advice has always been, no, don’t paint it. Just learn to like the color you have because once you paint it, you’re in the business of painting it. And it’s just not a good thing for stucco. That’s what the traditional, again, “wisdom” when it comes to stucco has always been.
RS: I’ve always been against painting stucco. But I’ve got a contractor whom we refer to for stucco failures and stucco repairs. They really specialize in this. And he said, Reuben, I’ve heard you talk about not painting stucco, but that’s old school thinking. You can actually paint it. And it’s not technically paint that we’re putting on. It’s a different product. And I can’t remember what you guys call it, but I had it done at my house. It’s beautiful. It turned out great. And I thought, I got to tell other people about this to say, you got options. And that’s why I reached out to Sherwin-Williams ’cause it was one of their products. It was this product called Loxon, and it’s beautiful. It sealed up all the little hairline cracks. It looks really good. It goes on almost like a goop, and I wanted Dennis to talk all about it. So, Dennis, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?
Dennis Fiorilli: I’m doing well Reuben. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about coating stucco.
RS: Sweet. So before we get into this, I wanna just get a little bit more of your history. How long have you been with Sherwin-Williams and what exactly does the director of product excellence do?
DF: That’s a great question. So I’ve been with Sherwin for 21 years. I got my start in the stores. So I was in our Cleveland district for about 15 years, working my way through many different positions but as a store manager, as a sales rep. And then had an opportunity to come over to the product innovation side of our business, working with those who formulate and create new products. And my team now… I have a team now in the field that we are product excellence managers, and their role is to make sure that our field is educated on our products, but also to meet with customers and really understand their business, their product needs, so that we can help influence that next generation of products that come through the Sherwin-Williams line.
RS: Okay. All right. Excellent. So…
DF: Product excellence right there.
RS: I love it. I love it. So you are the product expert when it comes to just about everything you guys make, I assume, right?
DF: I have a lot of knowledge around coatings that I’m surprised that I have. Correct.
RS: Okay. All right. Love it. Well, first off, I wanna ask you, what exactly is this product that I keep referring to? I mean, the name on the can said Loxon Concrete Masonry Coating or something but it didn’t say paint anywhere on there. What exactly is this product?
DF: So we have a line of coatings, so we have our ConFlex and Loxon coatings are designed to go over concrete and masonry. So stucco would be included in that category, designed to like I said direct application to… There’s a lot of things that Stucco and concrete can be challenging to coat, right? A lot of challenges there. Stucco, for instance, the challenge there is a lot of times it’s high pH, so it’s hot. So when you think about new concrete, it takes a long time to cure out, and a stucco is no exception. So we wanna make sure that we’re using coatings that are designed to handle that pH. And what that does is it allows for adhesion, right? It can withstand things like efflorescence, wind-driven rain, and everything that’s needed to protect that substrate while still holding on to that substrate as well.
RS: Okay. And, part of the reason that I think we have such a challenge with painting stucco is that stucco is considered a reservoir cladding where you got something like vinyl, it’s basically a rain screen. Water hits it, water can get behind it, it’s not a defect. And then water just drains back out. And the vinyl siding itself is just the first layer of defense. But then you get a product like stucco. We call it a reservoir cladding because it is going to absorb water by nature. It’s kind of like a big sponge on the side of the house. And it’s not a problem as long as we’ve got good protection behind the stucco. And we allow the stucco to dry out. And, typically the sun hits it and it’s gonna dry both to the inside and the outside of the wall. But now if you put a traditional paint on there, you’re almost sealing it.
RS: And water is gonna get behind it somehow, sometime. It’s never gonna be 100% waterproof. And now the paint is gonna help prevent that stucco from drying to the outside of the wall. It traps all that water in there. And so something my stucco guy has told me is that you wanna use a breathable product, something like Loxon, if you’re gonna do a coating on the house. So can you tell me more about how that works?
DF: Yeah, great question. So you want a coating that’s breathable, as you mentioned. So meaning that it allows the water vapor to escape the substrate. So, right, as you mentioned some of the challenges to painting stucco or other concrete coatings is that they do absorb water so if you are gonna coat over top of it you want something that’s breathable, so that water vapor can escape and that’s what Loxon is, it has higher perms which allows that to escape. So somebody might ask well doesn’t that mean that water can get in easily, right, and go the other way? So these coatings are designed to be hydrophobic meaning that large droplets of water that are hitting from rain, snow, whatever it might be, to the substrate or to the surface of the coating, they can’t penetrate into the coating, right. But it still allows those perms to escape. So when you think about somebody’s home, the home itself is typically cooler. And then the outside, when the sun is hitting it, it brings heat, right. So that vapor wants to escape through the coating.
DF: So that’s why it’s important to make sure that the coating is, “breathable” to allow that to escape. And it doesn’t then create either damage to the substrate, so create that popping, or damage to the coating itself. We don’t wanna see big bubbles form, right, that’s trapping that moisture. And that’s what these Loxon coatings allow for, for that vapor to escape.
RS: Okay. All right. Got it. And maybe I’m just really slow. But I think something just clicked for me. It’s spelled L-O-X-O-N. And is that just a play on words as in it locks on to the surface? Is that where the name comes from?
DF: I can tell you, I’m not exactly sure where the name comes from. That product was before my time in roll. So that’s something I definitely would have to get back to you on.
RS: Okay. All right. All right. Total sidetrack there. So, let me ask, what type of prep needs to be done on this if you have a house that’s in good condition? Like the stucco’s good, it’s just not the color we want. We got some little hairline cracks. What would someone need to do before applying this product?
DF: Yeah, so I would say we would follow any recommendation of when you’re painting any type of coating or other architectural coating. It would be clean, dull, dry. Right, and typically stucco you don’t have to worry about a sheen to it, so we’ve got that dullness there but you just wanna make sure it’s clean. So if there’s any debris or mildew growth, clean all that off, allow it to dry out properly. And then you would apply the Loxon coating just as you would any other house paint. That’s the beauty of Loxon is that yes it provides you all these great attributes going over concrete coatings, yet it’s easy to apply just like any other coating.
RS: And so you can just use a paint sprayer?
DF: Yep. You can use a brush roller spray, whatever is easier, depending on what method works best for you. Depending on… Within the Loxon line, we have different products. But I would say the products that we typically see on somebody’s home would be the Loxon Concrete and Masonry Primer, which is probably what was used initially on your house. And then we also have Loxon XP, which is designed to be a heavier bodied coating, right? So direct application, two coats right over top. Or the Loxon self-cleaning, which is newer technology, which gives you that ability to not only have direct application to the concrete, but also keeps your home looking cleaner longer because of the special benefit that it offers with that self-cleaning technology.
RS: Okay. All right. Well, the people who did my house, this guy was outside with a power washer. I mean, it’s just the front of my house, It’s not the whole thing. This guy was outside with a pressure washer for, I swear, he was at it for an entire day. Because I office from home and, man, he had that pressure washer going. I had my headphones on like all day long. He was going nuts. So, I feel good about that. Good prep work. What about… Go ahead.
DF: Can I just jump in there real quick? I think you bring up a good point when you talk about pressure washing. I think everyone thinks that’s the best way to clean. And it is a great option, but you have to remember, especially when you’re talking about a porous substrate like stucco, we wanna make sure then the next step is to allow it to dry properly.
RS: Got it. Got it. Very good. And what if somebody has a house where you already have paint? You’ve got traditional, maybe they use latex paint. It’s peeling off all over the place. Is there any hope for them?
DF: There’s always hope, right. It just goes back to that prep then. There’s gonna probably be a lot of scraping, probably a lot of washing. You wanna get off anything that’s loose. That looks like it’s gonna fall off. If it doesn’t all come off, I wouldn’t stress too much. What I would do is go around, at least spot prime those bare areas with like a Loxon Concrete and Masonry Primer, and then come back and then topcoat with your Loxon topcoat.
RS: Okay, now I’m just thinking about scraping. I’ve done a lot of scraping on wood homes with peeling paint. But I can’t imagine how I would begin to scrape a house that has stucco.
DF: Yeah, that’s where probably a lot of washing is gonna come into play. You’re gonna use a pressure washer to try to get anything loose off there. It’s not a good position to be in, but there is still some hope. It might continue to be somewhat of a maintenance, I’ll say challenge throughout the next couple of years as areas continue to fail maybe that weren’t failing previously, but hopefully overall you’re able to get a pretty good clean slate to start with and not have to worry about too many spots to fix.
RS: Okay, got it. And what type of life do you think I can expect for this new product before it starts peeling off?
DF: Yeah. I would say it’s really gonna be dependent on the environment, its exposure. I would say that in climates where you’re not seeing all four seasons, I would expect it to probably last a little bit longer than a Northern climate where you’re getting those four seasons. So it’s hard to put a time frame on it. But a typical repaint of somebody’s house is anywhere between seven to 10 years anyways. Typically people wanna refresh the house, the outside of the house, or change color. So I would expect it to at least last that long.
RS: Okay. I was hoping you were gonna say much longer than you’re alive, but.
DF: Well, it probably could. I just tell you based off of like… It’s hard to say, but like on average, we know that people are painting their houses between seven and 10 years. So I would be comfortable in saying that today.
RS: Okay. All right. Cool. And then I also wanna ask you, any other products that are cool and neat solutions that you guys offer similar to this? Just good solutions for people who have got paint problems on the outside of the house.
DF: Yeah. We’ve got a lot of, I think, options. Just, are you asking specifically to stucco and concrete?
RS: Stucco, concrete, or even wood. I mean, tell me about this. I had a house in Minneapolis where I had wood siding. I think it was redwood siding. And I had peeling paint when I bought the house. Eventually, a friend of mine, he worked at a large paint supplier. He was a very knowledgeable paint dude. And we went out there and we scraped and we sanded and we went to town for like a week or two prepping my house. And we got this primer. It was like this thick goop that we put on the wood. It was basically the consistency of Elmer’s glue. And we did the whole house with that stuff. And then we painted it meticulously. I mean, it was beautiful. And then about a year or two later. It started peeling off again. And we painted it again. Same thing happened. And it was just ongoing. It’s like this redwood siding would not hold paint no matter what we did. What could we have possibly done differently?
DF: So without seeing it, it’s hard to diagnose it. But I would say typically with those woods that have a lot of tannins in them. Definitely, if you have the opportunity to use an oil-based primer, something that can really penetrate and seal that wood, that’s a great first start. Now I know not all states still allow oil-based primers. We have different VOC regulations, so it can be challenging. So we continue to develop water-based coatings that can give you similar performance.
DF: But I know Minneapolis, you’re able to still use those oils, so that’s a great option for you. It sounds like what you’re referencing is a product that we have that’s similar to like PrimeRx, which is a heavy bodied primer. And that’s designed to help smooth out old painted houses that maybe you can’t scrape everything off, but you have those peeling issues. So it’s designed to act like a glue. And it’s a great option for you, but it’s also kind of one of those steps where it’s like, I probably should do a little bit more prep or replace the siding if needed. This is kind of a temporary solution. So it’s designed to give you a little bit of that glue, seal it out heavy to kind of fill gaps, to smooth out. So when your topcoat is applied over it, then it looks nice. So those are some great options. But once again, it goes back to, as I mentioned, even with the stucco, it’s all about the prep. So if we can get it down to that bare, that original substrate, it’s the best option.
RS: Okay. All right. Got it. Yeah. Boy, it’s such a challenge with that wood ’cause it’s such a nice product. It’s so gorgeous. It’s so thick. And no matter what you did, it would never rot. But boy, it would not hold paint.
DF: Yeah. It is definitely challenging, especially, like I said, when you have an older house and you wanna keep that original siding there, there’s a lot of maintenance that can be involved for sure to keep it looking nice.
RS: Cool. Well, Dennis, I really appreciate your time coming on the show today. It’s great to know that there are products out there that people can use if you’ve got a stucco house. You’re not stuck with the same color all the time. And I mean, I know I said it before, I’ll say it again. My house looks fantastic. I was really happy with the job they did. It looks brand new. All the little hairline cracks are completely gone. Before I bought my house, you probably know here in the… Well, not just the Twin Cities, but all over the country, you get newer stucco and these houses are especially prone to water intrusion problems and rot behind the walls.
RS: So, of course, before I bought my house, I had my own company come out and do intrusive moisture testing on it where we drill little holes, we stick a moisture probe into the wall. And then when we’re all done, you caulk all the holes and you use caulk of a matching color. And it’s just about invisible. But then once the paint happened, it’s totally invisible. I mean, I went up to all the test locations basically with my microscope, I mean, I’m looking carefully to figure out where we had previously tested my house. I can’t even find ’em. So it did a really job of completely hiding all evidence that it was ever moisture tested. And yeah, the whole thing just looks fantastic. So I appreciate the fact that you guys have this product and really appreciate you coming on the show. Any final thoughts or advice you wanna share with anyone?
DF: Yeah. No, Reuben, I appreciate the opportunity today just to talk about Loxon coatings. But I would also encourage you to know that we have this product stocked at all of our 4500 plus locations throughout the country. So it’s not a special order product. It’s readily available to anybody looking for this type of coating. Also, this is just… A portion of the products that we carry in our Sherwin-Williams lineup. And, if there’s an opportunity to talk more coatings with you at another point, Reuben, I’d love that opportunity.
RS: I will take you up on that. Next time we got any questions, I’ve got a contact now. It’ll be so much easier to get ahold of you. And yeah, I’ll be sure to save your info. And if anybody wants to reach out to Sherwin-Williams with any questions, is there a contact number or general email or something that I could throw out there for our listeners?
DF: Yeah, we have the 1-800-4-SHERWIN. They can use that number. But I would also encourage them just to stop at their local Sherwin-Williams store and talk to the teams there. They’re very knowledgeable about our products.
RS: Cool. Well, thank you so much, Dennis. I really appreciate you taking the time. And I’m gonna keep your number handy. And if any of the listeners have any questions, any ideas for a future show, more questions for Dennis potentially, if we were gonna do a second episode, feel free to email us, it’s podcast@structuretech.com. So I’m Reuben Saltzman, with Tessa Murry signing off. Thanks for tuning in guys. Appreciate it.