When we talk about real estate real agents, usually they would convince people to buy the property because of this and that. May it be in the seller’s market or buyer’s market, we never heard of them telling anyone anything other than “Why now is the good time to buy!” But today, we will hear a different story that will knock us off our feet.
Michael Bartus, residential Realtor® extraordinaire of Lakes Sotheby’s International Realty, joins the show to explain why this might not be a good time for some to buy. The show starts off by digging into the conversations about reasons and some useful information for not buying a house today. Thus, Michael is very eager to impart his knowledge and experiences with his buyers to us.
The following is a transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be slightly incomplete or contain minor inaccuracies due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Bill Oelrich: And the question is, “Should I buy a house in this market?” Reuben, I know this took you by surprise, tell me how shocked were you when you heard what he had to say?
Reuben Saltzman: [chuckle] Well, in my lifetime, I have never heard a real estate agent tell anyone anything other than why now is a good time to buy.
BO: Welcome everybody, you’re listening to Structure Talk, a Structure Tech presentation. My name is Bill Oelrich as always, alongside Tessa Murry and Reuben Saltzman, your three-legged stool up in the Northland talking all things houses. And today, we’re even gonna get out of our lane, we’re gonna dig into the real estate market and we’re very excited to have Michael Bartus back. Michael is a realtor extraordinaire based out of the Twin Cities. Michael, go ahead. Why don’t you introduce yourself, tell everybody where you’re at, what firm you’re with.
Michael Bartus: Hello, I’m Michael Bartus. I’m a residential realtor at Lakes Sotheby’s International Realty. I cover the Twin Cities and western Wisconsin.
BO: Outstanding. Thank you very much, Michael. We’re gonna dig into a conversation that you’re beginning to have with some of your buyers and the question is, “Should I buy a house in this market?” Reuben, I know this took you by surprise, Michael’s answer. I’m gonna let Michael answer in just a little bit but tell me, how shocked were you when you heard what he had to say?
RS: [chuckle] Well, I’ve been at this a long time. In my lifetime, I have never heard a real estate agent tell anyone anything other than why now is a good time to buy. That is always the advice, there’s always a reason. Seller’s market, here’s why you should buy; buyer’s market, here’s why you should buy. It’s always the same thing over and over again. And I was chatting with Michael, well, just recently and that was not the advice he gave, and it just knocked me off my feet and I said, “Michael, you gotta get on the podcast and share this.” So, what are you telling people, Michael?
MB: Well, let me kinda back up as to my response to what I said. First of all, when you hire a residential realtor to help you buy a home, we are your agent which means we work on your behalf and contractually, that’s what we’re supposed to do. Honestly, just sometimes, especially my first-time home buyers, we’re going $25,000-35,000 over asking price. Just doesn’t make sense because you make your money on your home when you buy it. And what I mean by that is if you overpay $30,000 today and you have an emergency situation come up where your job makes you have to relocate, let’s say two years from now, you’re gonna probably be upside down, meaning you’re gonna have to write a check at closing to get out from under your house.
MB: Real estate is one of the few things you can buy that you can go backwards on, and a lot of people don’t understand what I mean by that but you could have a house that you paid 250 for and in two or three years, it only may be worth 200, and now I have to write a $50,000 check to get out from under it down the road. If I buy a pencil for a dollar and I have to sell the pencil or throw it away, I’m only out a dollar, I don’t have to pay $50,000 to get rid of that pencil. So, it’s just one of the few things you can buy that can devalue so much under what you paid for it, that you just have to be really careful. And so, with my first-time home buyers, I’m telling them not to buy a house right now, and it really depends on their situation, and we’ll make offers maybe at asking price or maybe even under asking price and the listing agent might say, “Wow, this guy’s a tool. He must not be in tune with the market because he’s coming in at asking price or under.” And when I do my analysis when my clients make an offer, I’m doing a market analysis on that property and if I don’t believe it’s worth 20,000 or 30,000 dollars more than asking price, then I’m telling people not to do it. Why would you do that?
RS: What about the people who are just like, “Hey, I need to get out of where I’m at right now. I can’t stay in this apartment or wherever I’m at and now is the time, and I want to do it, and I don’t care if I’m gonna go under water.” Have you had people who tell you that?
MB: Yeah, I’ve had some people that have said, “You know what, I’m willing to pay more.” And again, it’s a situation by situation. You can’t paint everyone with a broad brush in terms of what to do, you have to look at each situation, look at each person’s individual financing. Maybe they have 20% down, maybe they have a lot of money or equity so they can pay down that house ’cause if you can aggressively pay down a house, okay great, you could probably afford to take a little bit of a loss. But if you’re a first-time home buyer and you only have three or five percent or maybe zero down VA loan, boy, that’s pretty skinny. There’s not a lot of room for error there. And if you have to relocate for a job or you get divorced or something bad happens, heaven forbid, you could really be in some hot water. Luckily, we’ve had really good appreciation over the last five years so you can kinda be sloppy with overpaying here in a little bit. I’ve had clients sell in two years or even one year and they’ve been able to walk away even so that was great, but I think it’s a little more dangerous in today’s market than it was even just two years ago.
BO: Michael, can I ask how you’re constructing these deals when you’re at 3% down or even 0% percent down in a VA loan and you have to go over asking to try to secure a property, how are these people actually making that offer work?
MB: Yeah, those are cases where you are gonna probably have to go over asking price to get them done and, like I say, a lot of my first-time home buyers aren’t getting houses right now and some are getting them done. Where I’m seeing it happen, where it’s working, is you at least have to be in the game. So what I mean by that is let’s say there’s a house, your client likes it and they wanna make an offer, great. You offer what you can afford, you offer what you think is right and fair and you lose out on that house so now you are a back-up buyer. What I’m seeing a lot right now because of the frenzy that’s going on and people are making offers way over asking price, they do the inspection and then they realize, “You know what, I think I maybe made a mistake. I really don’t wanna overpay $25,000 or $30,000 for this house,” so they back out. Okay. Well, now you’re next in line maybe.
MB: Maybe you were the second or third best offer. So I have had many deals this year close where I was the second or third offer, and I wasn’t the first best and as long as I’m still in the game and I keep close communication with that listing agent and say, “Hey, did the deal go through? Did the deal go through?” And they say, “You know what? It didn’t go through.” I had one deal where they lost out on two buyers, I was the third buyer, third best offer, and we got that deal done and my clients were just thrilled, and guess what? We didn’t pay $25,000 or $30,000 over the asking price. We paid what we thought was fair for that house. So, sometimes you get lucky but if you’re not at least in the game, you won’t get a house, so at least make an offer.
BO: Michael, are you adding a timing component to the strategy when you’re having these conversations with your clients, because I know in Minnesota we sometimes have a cycle to our real estate market, at least the buying, when people are actually out in the market really looking to buy a house?
MB: Yeah, so the market is counter-intuitive today than it was like five years ago. So, in the olden days, people would take their house off the market in November through, let’s say, February and get through the Super Bowl and all that, and then they would list their house when the flowers are blooming and the grass is green, and everything is all lush here in Minnesota. Now, that is all out the window. We’re actually getting more money for the houses, a lot of times, earlier in the year than we are in the middle of the year because there’s less inventory because the old schoolers that still go by the green, yard and all that, they’re still sitting on the sidelines so there’s less inventory. So, I’m telling my sellers to list now even when it’s yucky out and they’re getting top dollar and so that’s why I’m telling my buyers just to wait, because there will be a wave of more inventory that will come out, let’s say in July.
BO: I like that. And that leads me into my next question was, how much frustration is there in the market right now? Because just that example you cited where you’re third in line, actually won the house, I imagine the seller went from this very high of high, “We’re gonna get 30 over,” to the rug was just pulled out from under it and now somebody’s only gonna buy the house for what they think it’s worth. That must be an incredible amount of frustration. And then on the flip side of that coin, that buyer sitting in third place asking you to call the agent day after day to see where they’re at, they must just be anxious and frustrated as well.
MB: Yeah, it’s a war and you’re finding a lot of battles at one time. So each offer or each house you’re looking at is a battle and we’re having to do crazy things as realtors. We’ve had to really shift. We shifted with COVID and all that happened with COVID, and now we’re having to shift again with less inventory and get creative in finding our clients homes while not overpaying, hopefully, too much.
Tessa Murry: You know what Michael, I’ve got a question for you. Would you say that the people that you feel are at the greatest risk for going under water are first-time home buyers or people buying in a certain price bracket, and what would that be?
MB: Yeah, it seems like it’s the first-time home buyers that are really affected the most because they don’t have really much leverage at all. ‘Cause if you look at the components of an offer, it’s gonna be the offer price, it’s gonna be the closing date, it’s gonna be the money down, it’s gonna be the type of financing that you’re using, so that could be conventional, a veteran loan or FHA loan. And if the house is in rough shape, you really wanna try to go conventional if you can but not everyone has the credit score to get conventional all the time. So unfortunately, the people with bad credit are getting discriminated against when it comes to their offers, and that is something you can look at when you’re a listing agent. You can say, “No, I don’t like this type of financing because this house is in rough shape. I don’t think it’s going to pass the appraisal inspection,” because when you have a VA loan or an FHA loan, the appraiser is actually turning into an inspector as well. And if there’s chipping paint on the garage, if there’s chipping paint on the house, inside the house, the roof’s in rough shape. I know Structure Tech has inspected some homes of my clients and the garage is about to fall over. FHA, VA won’t approve that.
MB: So those people get put to the bottom of the pile, unfortunately, because of the type of loan they’re doing. And so, that’s what a lot of first-time home buyers are. They may not have a lot of money or they may not have the best credit. That’s maybe why they’ve been on the sidelines, is because they’ve been renting and trying to build up their credit or save some money down. But when the market keeps going up and up and up, you need to more and more money down and so you’re just… These first-time homes are just kinda sitting on the wayside. But yeah, I would say definitely, it’s the first-time home buyers that are really feeling the brunt of this and it’s the price range, I would say, is really 400,000 or less is really what’s really being impacted the most. But I had a client lose out on a $2 million lakeshore place and there was five or six offers. We were over-asking price on that one too, so it’s really impacting all price points but I really feel like the first-time home buyers are the ones that are really getting hit the hardest.
TM: And potentially taking the biggest risk.
MB: Absolutely, ’cause… I’ve owned real estate since I was 21. I bought my first house for $63,000. I bought my second house for $110,000 and I’ve had equity on all those homes, I’ve never lost money but guess what? On my second home I bought, I had to rough it through when the value decreased to $100,000. So if I had to sell it, I wouldn’t have a property worth what it is today but I had to stomach it and hang on, keep my job, keep money coming in, pay my bills, stay put. And that’s what I’m telling my clients too is, “If you’re gonna go over-asking price, how long are you gonna stay in this house? ‘Cause if you… ” I have some clients who are now saying, “You know what, I’m only gonna be here three years and then I’m moving back to where I’m from.” Alright, well, you need to be really careful on what you buy ’cause that could be a problem.
RS: Now, if those people are already moving out of one house and they’re moving to the next, do you just call it a wash and you say you’re gonna get way more for your house today, and you’re gonna pay way more for the next one and it’s just gonna even itself out?
MB: Yeah, it’s a good question but the problem for a lot of people, they’re usually moving up not moving down. Those are the ones that are getting hurt the most. So I have a client right now, I sold their town home and now they’re looking at their family is growing, they need a house. So for them, what I did is we did what’s called a rent back, where we set the sale up to help us with the buy side. So what happens is they close on the property and then if there’s a loan involved, you can go up to 60 days to stay in the house, so they’ve had… So now I have 60 days to find him a house, if I don’t then they might be living in Staybridge Suites for a couple of months, which is terrible. I have a closing that happened today, they were living in their parents basement for three months while the house was being built, so you just have to create really creative situations to kinda get through this market.
TM: Michael, do you think that with all the people that are almost like overreaching and taking a lot of risk and paying more than maybe what the house is valued for and really stretching themselves financially, do you think that could put us in a similar situation that we faced back in 2008, 2010?
MB: That’s a good question. I think there’s been some things put in place where I don’t think we’re gonna hit rock bottom like we did. There’s just too many security measures that are put in. I think, just like what happened when COVID hit people that are in the retail sector or the restaurant industry, those are the potential first-time home buyers so they’re the ones most at risk of losing their jobs when this COVID thing flares up again. You’re in the restaurant business and now you qualify for a loan, and now you’re in the house and all of a sudden, you’re working at a restaurant as a chef or whatever, and now you lose your job ’cause round four COVID hits, and now you lose your job and you can’t make your mortgage payment. What are you gonna do? So, that’s why I just think you just gotta be really, really careful for these first-time home buyers.
BO: And the upside of a market isn’t infinite. These houses, let’s call them starter homes, they’re not gonna increase to the level of a much nicer home and a much nicer community type of thing. And I don’t mean to put it that way but there is a top end to this and you might get caught at that top end getting squeezed and having nowhere to go. So Michael, I wanted to ask you, institutional buyers are in the market now, how much are they affecting these first-time home buyers? Are those two entities in competition with one another, especially on this lower side or is the institutional buyer looking at a product that’s a higher end or at least a mid-tier end?
MB: When you say institutional buyer, what are you meaning by that?
BO: I’m talking about any of these groups that are maybe equity-backed buyers that are coming in and buying these houses to turn around and rent them out.
MB: I’m not seeing that a lot. I’ve been hearing that there’s a bunch of them out there buying, but I haven’t seen any cross my desk so I’m not running into that. I’m not seeing a lot of people wanting to be a landlord right now. I’m a landlord right now, I’ve had tenants that haven’t paid me since November and I can’t evict them ’cause of COVID so why would I wanna be a landlord right now? I know it also could be an opportunity to buy, but now you’re buying at the height of the market, so can you make the numbers work? I don’t know, I just… Things just don’t make sense, for me, on some of this stuff on paper unless you have a lot of money down, unless you’re just doing cash and you just want cash flow or if you need the write-off. That’s the thing, if you’re making so much money and you just need write-offs, great, buy a bunch of real estate ’cause you’re gonna be, probably, upside down on things and you can write that loss off. That’s the only thing that makes sense to me is if you need a loss, great, overpay for things but that logic doesn’t work for me.
TM: You know what Michael, you’ve been in the real estate industry for what… What did you say, 20-plus years you’ve been doing this?
MB: Well, I’ve had my license since I was 21, so I’m 50…
TM: Like 10 years? [chuckle]
MB: No, 30. So, yeah. [laughter] Oh, that’s cute. Thank you for that. Yeah, so 30 years but full-time realtor for 16 years.
TM: Would you say that this is unprecedented times in terms of what houses are going for and what people are willing to pay to get them, at least here in the Twin Cities market? Have you seen anything like this before here?
MB: I have not seen anything even close to this, it’s absolutely crazy and it’s nationwide. It’s not just Minnesota, it’s the entire nation and the only area that I’m seeing more difficulty is the condo market in Minneapolis and St. Paul, that has slowed down because the people that want to walk to work don’t have a work to walk to. So if I don’t have to walk to work, do I really wanna be in a condo downtown and if you’re buying a condo downtown for walkability, walk to what? Walk to no restaurants, walk to no entertainment, walk to your garage to drive to where? So, that’s the challenge now. I think that’s all gonna… That’ll all come back. Once the vaccine kicks in and we have herd immunity or whatever is gonna happen, hopefully that all gets back to normal and we start seeing these businesses open up maybe this summer or fall.
MB: So, I think that’s gonna come back. I’m also seeing areas like Lowry Hill, like near uptown, even in that luxury space, things taking a little bit longer to sell, but I think when that comes back, when people can go to work again… ‘Cause that’s the reason why I might wanna live in Lowry Hill is, let’s say, I’m an executive that works downtown, I wanna live in a nice home that’s close to downtown but now I don’t have to go to work every day. I think that market will come back too, so I’ve been telling some of my clients that I think Lowry Hill, for instance, is an opportunity, near the uptown areas kind of an opportunity ’cause that area got hit really hard with the rioting.
TM: So, this is unprecedented for us here in Minnesota, but seems like this has been happening. You think about the West Coast, in California and even Denver and the East Coast cities, do you think that we’re just kind of catching up with some of other markets?
MB: Yeah, I do. I do a lot of relocations so I’m moving people into and out of the Twin Cities, and I’m seeing definitely an influx of people from California coming to Minnesota. A lot of those people are moving to Las Vegas, Arizona, Washington, Colorado, areas close to them, but even Colorado, because of the marijuana money has made Colorado just insanely expensive. So we as Minnesotans compete for Coloradoans or people from Colorado for jobs and I’m seeing people that would normally maybe look at a job in Colorado or just think, “I can’t afford to live in Colorado,” Minnesota is similar in terms of quality of life and schools and that sort of thing. So now we’re starting to win more of those transferees that would have maybe considered Colorado are saying, “No, I wanna go to Minnesota.”
TM: Yeah, what if we’re just the next Colorado? What if now is the time to buy? What if it only keeps going up?
MB: That would be a great thing. I think, relatively speaking, we are still affordable for what people make in Minnesota, people make a good living here and our real estate is relatively affordable but I think if someone’s moving from Texas or Indiana…
TM: Mid-West somewhere.
BO: Yeah. Where the real estate still, like Nebraska, where the real estate, it’s still really affordable. Minnesota feels really expensive to those folks but the Californians feel like this is a bargain. So it’s just really relative to where you’re from. But that’s why I like to talk to people when they’re moving here. I like to give them a guided tour and say, “Hey, this is what 500,000 gets you. This is what a million dollars gets you,” and usually people are about $100,000 off on what they think they would get for their money here.
TM: You mean they think it would be more expensive than what it is?
MB: They think it’s less. They think, “Wow, I can get a Taj Mahal for 500,” and it’s like, “Well, sorry it’s 650.” And that surprises a lot of people, people are really shocked at how expensive we are ’cause we’re a smaller market but we’re a state with a lot of Fortune 1000 companies and we have an incredible economy here, we really do. It’s very diverse. It’s one of the most diverse economies not only in the country, but in the world, actually.
MB: We lead the world in a lot of things.
TM: Yes, Minnesota.
BO: [laughter] I was thinking, when you were talking about people leaving California for Minnesota thinking that this was a good spot, I was thinking of tax shelter. You’re leaving one just immensely taxed state to another one that’s not quite so taxed. [laughter] But Michael, I wanted to ask you, when do you begin having this conversation with people, do you take them out and show them five or ten houses, put in two or three offers, and then sit down and have this, “Maybe we should just table this conversation for a while,” or do you do it right up front?
MB: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I have a process that all my buyers and sellers go through and I’m very strategic about it, and you really just have to have a plan. And I know there’s a lot of iBuyers that are doing things online and they’re kinda like the amazon.com out of where you just click a button and buy it and it shows up tomorrow. This is real estate, there’s a lot more variables to it and that sort of thing, so I have a four-page questionnaire that I send all my buyers this and they fill it out and I say, “Okay, great. Now we’re gonna meet in person and we’re gonna talk about what your interests are.” And I might challenge them on some of the areas that they’re considering, maybe try to expand their reach a little bit based on their goals, get them set up on an accurate home search. And then I talk to them about what is earnest money? What’s the down payment look like? And you really kinda set their expectations up and, honestly, the meetings I have with my buyers, it really sounds like I’m Danny Downer, but I’d rather have the tough conversations upfront, so once we start looking at houses that I’m saying, “Hey, this is a great house. You should make an offer on this one based on what you told me.”
MB: We’ve already had the dress rehearsal in the first meeting so we’re not reinventing the wheel and starting from zero when we get to make an offer. We’ve actually talked about what earnest money is and why maybe having a larger earnest money check is a good thing versus having to explain even what it is. So yeah, I insist on all my clients meeting with me. I want them set up on my search, I don’t want to looking at some random searches on houses that don’t exist on Zillow. I wanna have them looking at stuff that’s real and then we go look at those real houses and we have real conversations and hopefully get a house eventually.
BO: I like that. So who’s the big winner? Where are you seeing the payoff for people that you wouldn’t have thought was gonna be the case 18 months ago?
MB: I think that winners right now are the sellers that have a lot to do with their homes, the people that need a new furnace that need a new air conditioner, that need all new windows ’cause the seals are broken, they haven’t had a new roof put on ’cause they didn’t get hit by hail so they’ve got the single-tab shingles that are 19 years old that are starting to look like curly fries that need to get replaced. And when you add up those kind of houses, maybe they’re from the ’90s let’s say, you’re looking at $50,000 worth of stuff and you’re not gonna get hardly any of that money back. You don’t get a lot of money back on new windows, and I think the return on windows is like 20 years. Nice, but to save 20 bucks a month because you have energy efficient windows, I don’t think that’s a great payoff but if you have to do it, you have to do it.
MB: So the sellers that just have a whole bunch of stuff done that need to be done are the big winners right now. And so, when I meet with my sellers, a lot of times they’re asking me, “Do I need to do this? Do I need to do that? Do I need to do that?” I’m like, “You know what, you don’t need to do anything. Just declutter your house, make sure it doesn’t smell, clean the carpets, let’s stage the furniture the right way and maybe we don’t do all this stuff and we’ll pass the buck on to the buyer,” and that’s what’s happening, unfortunately, for the buyers. So the sellers, I think, are getting away with murder right now.
RS: Especially when they’re just skipping the home inspection and they have no idea what they’re getting, right?
MB: Right. Yeah. If you’re skipping a home inspection and there’s 50 grand worth of stuff, I would be really, really mad two years from now when I have to put a new roof on. I’m like, “Why didn’t someone tell me I’m gonna need a new roof?” And that’s where it gets back to your hiring a realtor to be your fiduciary, your agent working on your behalf. How is not doing an inspection working on your behalf? I just don’t see it.
RS: Have you ever had buyers who do that where it’s like you tell them, “Hey, you should get a home inspection,” and they go, “Yeah, but I really want this house, so can we do an offer not contingent,” does that ever happen?
MB: Not to me. I’ve only had one or two homes in the last couple of years that I’ve sold without an inspection, and the one that I can think of was last year, it was a cash buyer. She was, financially, in a really good position on the house. She wanted to be closer to her daughter. It wasn’t an overly expensive house for her, it was like a $275,000-300,000 house. I went through the whole house by myself, my background is construction, and I was blown away by the quality of work that this person had done on it, and I had a long conversation with the listing agent about who did the work and how. And everything added up just beautifully, I recorded a video of the entire home, nitpicked it apart and it was like… She was already there with me and that was one of the buyers we didn’t do a home inspection with, and we got the offer accepted and and she was very happy, and no issues. But that’s pretty rare that I would do something like that.
BO: Michael, are buyers able to pivot to some place if they absolutely are convinced that they wanna buy, or are they just moving farther out from the city centers and looking at older stock maybe in a smaller town, or are they buying new construction on what I’d call a fourth ring of like our metro area, what are people doing?
MB: Yeah, a lot of my clients are building new construction, that’s probably my biggest growth area this year. I think I have like nine closings where they’re all building, at all different phases of new construction. So, building is easier because guess what, I don’t have multiple offers, I can control the situation, there’s an end game, it might be six months, eight months out, some of these national builders are saying it’s not gonna be done until December. You know what? At least now I know. Now I know I can get a house, this is when it’s gonna be. I might have to stay in a rental for a little bit while I sell my other house, maybe we can stretch the closing date out on my current home while the other house is being built.
MB: So new construction is the biggest growth area that I’m seeing and then I have some clients that are saying, “You know what, maybe I don’t need the big forever house that I wanted. Maybe I’ll just step but a click down from where I wanted to be and maybe I’ll sell them three or five years,” and because this is maybe a move-up buyer, maybe they have like 30% down so they look a lot better than the first-time home buyer that’s only 3% down. If you kinda go down in price and it’s a second or third home for you in terms of like your history of buying homes, you’re a much stronger buyer than a first-time home buyer. So those are battles you can win because you have a little more leverage ’cause you have more skin in the game and you can do more creative things where the first-time home buyer’s just kinda getting run over by the market.
BO: Sounds like it’s interesting times in the real estate market.
MB: It is.
BO: I’m glad I’m settled in my house that I’ve been in forever and I will remain here forever. I think I’ve said on multiple occasions, they’re gonna take me out in a box. It’s not original, I know, but…
TM: I thought you wanted to be buried in the backyard though.
BO: No. No.
MB: That’s one of the disclosure items that if you’re buried in the backyard, we have to disclose a burial. So just to make sure, if you have a significant other that’s disclosed.
BO: Yeah. [laughter] Well, I think we’re gonna put a bow on today’s episode. Michael, thank you so much, as always, for spending some time with us. It’s just great to talk the market because we think we know what the market’s doing, but you always bring a very clear perspective and we appreciate that so much, so thank you. And before we sign off here, if you can just toss out your number and where everybody can reach you at. I wanna make sure anybody who wants this great advice can get it from you.
MB: Yeah. If you wanna reach out to me, my cell phone is 952-400-7000 and my website is hometwincities.com.
BO: Awesome. Thank you very much, Michael. Thank you Tessa, Reuben, as always, for being my co-hosts on this wonderful show that we do every week, so appreciate it. You’ve been listening to Structure Talk, a Structure Tech presentation. My name is Bill Oelrich and those two smiling faces you can’t see are Tessa and Reuben. We’ll catch you next time. Thanks for listening.