In this episode of Structure Talk, Reuben Saltzman and Tessa Murray discuss the impact of natural disasters on communities, particularly in light of recent storms. They are joined by Tim Hammack, co-owner of Paul Bunyan Plumbing, who focused on water heater maintenance. The discussion covers personal experiences with water heaters, the importance of anode rods, the role of water quality in the longevity of water heaters, and common maintenance practices. Tim also provides insights into water quality solutions for homeowners, emphasizing the need for regular maintenance and testing to ensure the health and efficiency of water systems. In this conversation, the hosts and their guests delve into the intricacies of water heater maintenance, discussing the importance of anode rods, the impact of water quality on plumbing systems, and the necessity of professional maintenance plans. They explore the differences between impact drivers and wrenches, the average lifespan of water heaters, and the potential issues with various plumbing materials. The discussion emphasizes the value of regular maintenance to extend the life of water heaters and prevent costly repairs.
Check this link for Tim Hammack’s company:
https://paulbunyanplumbing.com/
Takeaways
Natural disasters can have a profound impact on communities.
Water heater maintenance is crucial for longevity and efficiency.
Anode rods protect water heaters from corrosion and should be inspected regularly.
Many homeowners need to be made aware of the maintenance required for their water heaters.
Water quality significantly affects the lifespan of water heaters.
Regular maintenance can prevent costly replacements of water heaters.
Homeowners should consider water testing to understand their water quality.
A whole-house carbon filter can improve water quality by removing chlorine and chloramines.
Investing in a powered anode rod can reduce maintenance needs.
Understanding the local water quality can help homeowners make informed decisions about their plumbing systems. An impact driver is different from an impact wrench.
Regular maintenance can significantly extend the lifespan of water heaters.
Water quality plays a crucial role in the longevity of plumbing systems.
Anode rods should be checked regularly to prevent tank corrosion.
Homeowners should consider professional maintenance plans for their water heaters.
Sediment buildup in water heaters can lead to inefficiency and damage.
Different plumbing materials react differently to water quality.
Electrical current can affect the lifespan of metal pipes.
Disaster pans can help mitigate water damage from leaks.
Investing in maintenance can save homeowners money in the long run.
Chapters
00:00 Impact of Natural Disasters on Communities
01:54 Introduction to Water Heater Maintenance
03:06 Personal Experiences with Water Heaters
08:03 Understanding Anode Rods and Their Importance
11:51 The Role of Water Quality in Water Heater Longevity
18:11 Common Maintenance Practices for Water Heaters
25:26 Water Quality Solutions for Homeowners
33:35 Understanding Impact Drivers vs. Wrenches
34:55 Anode Rod Maintenance and Lifespan
38:54 Water Quality and Its Impact on Plumbing
TRANSCRIPTION
The following is a transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be slightly incomplete or contain minor inaccuracies due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Reuben Saltzman: Welcome to my house. Welcome to the Structure Talk podcast, a production of Structure Tech Home Inspections. My name is Reuben Saltzman. I’m your host, alongside building science geek Tessa Murry. We help home inspectors up their game through education, and we help homeowners to be better stewards of their houses. We’ve been keeping it real on this podcast since 2019, and we are also the number one home inspection podcast in the world, according to my mom.
RS: Welcome back to the show. Welcome to the Structure Talk podcast. I’m Reuben Saltzman, your host, alongside my co-host, Tessa Murry. Tessa, how you doing today?
Tessa Murry: Hey, Reuben. I’ll be honest, my heart is hurting for all the people that, we’re recording this the day after Milton hit Florida really hard, and I’ve got people that I love and care about that were in the path of this storm, and I know that you do too as well. And…
RS: Yes.
TM: So I’ve been following the news closely. So to be honest with you, we usually we don’t talk about events like that, but I’m definitely sending my prayers to all those people right now that are suffering from that damage from that storm. The wind and the rain was terrible. And, it just, I mean, there’s certain areas around Tampa that got like, you know, 15 inches of rain, so fully saturated ground, and then a hundred mile per hour sustained winds just devastated things.
RS: Devastating. Yeah. Yeah.
TM: Yeah.
RS: Awful. Yeah. My prayers are going out to all those people right now. Definitely.
TM: Yeah.
RS: Yep.
TM: Yep, yep. Anyway, sorry, shifting gears. You asked me how I was doing and then I just, you know, I had to get that out there, but…
RS: You are being honest. That’s okay. That’s how you’re doing.
TM: I’m being honest. I’m being honest.
RS: Your heart is with them right now.
TM: Yeah, yeah. So anyways, okay, but Reuben, let’s shift gears here. Who do we have as a special guest today on our show?
RS: Well, you know, through the magic of having a lot of shows in the hopper, we’re going to make it seem like we’ve got Tim Hammack on for the second week in a row. Actually, we recorded a podcast with him several weeks ago, but he had so much to talk about that all we ever talked about was tankless water heaters. And so we’re bumping this one up, so this is going to, this is going to air immediately after that one. And again, just to reset, I got Tim Hammack in here. Tim is the owner of Paul Bunyan Plumbing. Am I getting that right, Tim?
Tim Hammack: Yeah. One of the co-owners. I appreciate that.
RS: That’s my dog.
TH: Yeah. Co-owners of Paul Bunyan Plumbing, and Blue Ox Heating and Air Conditioning, EarlyBird Electric, and we’re titled Under Legendary Home Services. So located right here in New Hope, Minnesota, and I appreciate having you guys having me on as a guest again.
TM: Hey, we learned so much from you last time, Tim, you kind of blew our minds that, we’ve, like Reuben said, we’ve got a lot of ground to cover today, so hopefully we’ll dive in and ask you some questions.
TH: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. And you know, we were talking about water heaters, and I kind of want to continue that discussion, but I want to talk about water heater maintenance a little bit today. I’ve got… I know that you guys do water heater maintenance for people, and you and I were chatting about it when we met in person, probably a month ago or so, and there’s a lot of stuff that you guys do. And it really came to my mind the other day, ’cause I’ve told this story on the podcast, and I may have told you little snippets of it, Tim, but I installed one of those little point of use tankless water heaters underneath my kitchen sink, ’cause it used to take like somewhere around two minutes before I’d get hot water at the kitchen faucet. And I’ve got a finished basement, so I couldn’t do anything crazy with the water lines.
RS: I installed this little water heater. I get hot water instantly, but then it failed and I got a big flood in my basement and it was just a hot mess, and it was an insurance claim. I installed a new one. And then, but this time I installed like, basically a drain pan underneath my kitchen sink along with this water sensor alarm that’s connected to this electronic device at my main water valve. So if I do have a leak, it shuts off the water to my entire house. Well…
TM: So impressive.
[laughter]
TH: Technology…
RS: Yeah. Well, I don’t want another insurance claim. That was a nightmare. It was like a four-month deal trying to put my basement back together. So sure enough, the water heater leaked again, set off the thing, and it’s like, Oh, I got a failed tank. All right. I contact the manufacturer, Bosch, and I said, Hey, can you hook me up? I got a failed tank. It’s got a six-year warranty. It’s been two-and-a-half years. I think I’m due for a free replacement. And they’re like, Oh, yeah, no problem. Just send us a picture of the serial number and send us a picture of the leak and send us a picture of what’s left of the anode rod. And you know, I’m hearing the record scratch in my head, like, wait, anode rod?
RS: Okay, all right. And so I take it all apart and there is no anode rod, it’s gone. I mean, 100% gone. There’s nothing left. And I’m like, Oh, great. I know where this is going. I look in the manual, under the warranty section, and it says that to honor their warranty for the tank, you need to inspect the anode rod at least annually. You need to inspect it at least every year. And regardless of the condition, you need to replace it every two years. Ah.
RS: That’s the warranty, you need to replace it at least once every two years. So, you know, needless to say, I had not inspected it or replaced, I didn’t read the fine print on the warranty. I just saw it’s a six-year tank warranty. So, I ended up buying another one, and this time I bought a few anode rods to go along with it. I set a calendar event.
TM: You didn’t give up?
RS: No.
TM: You did not give up. You pressed forward.
RS: Yeah. If nothing else, I’m persistent, Tess. You remember, Dr. Ben Green we had on the show, he’s like, you know, computer geeks. We’re not any smarter than anybody else. We’re just persistent. And I kind of, that’s kind of how I am. I’m persistent. So I set a calendar event for one year after my installation day, and I dutifully uninstalled my water heater, shut off the water, disconnected it, unplugged it, dumped it upside down, drained the tank, took it apart, and inspected the anode rod. And I had what, basically just imagine an incense stick that’s about half as tall as an incense stick. That’s what I had for an anode rod. It’s basically the little wire rod core, and all of the magnesium is completely gone, so that anode rod is completely spent after one year.
TM: Wow.
RS: And from what I’ve heard, from what I’ve read, you’re supposed to replace those anode rods when they’re about 50% gone. That’s about the time to replace it. What? So I put a new one in, put it back underneath my sink. Now I’ve created a calendar event for me to check it in six months to see what it looks like. But it also got me thinking, all right, what the heck does the anode rod in my full house water heater look like? Maybe I should inspect that thing. I tried doing it once many years ago on a previous water heater where I got my socket wrench and I’m cranking on, I had to put a pipe on the end of my wrench ’cause I couldn’t get it to budge. I’m cranking on this thing and I start twisting the copper water lines going into my water heater.
TM: Oh, my gosh.
RS: I could not get that thing to budge. And so then I got my impact driver, my impact driver wouldn’t get it to budge either, and I just went, all right, I ain’t checking on the anode rod. This is beyond the scope of what I can do. So I’ve never done it. Tim, I’ve got a million questions for you surrounding all of this.
TH: Sure.
RS: But before I start asking, I just want to, I want to let you flow. What are your thoughts on all of this, Tim?
TH: Yeah, a couple, couple things. First of all, I commend you for attempting to do that maintenance, number one, on your little instantaneous tank. And number two on your whole home water heater. You can see where that would be a little bit of a challenge for the standard homeowner, right?
RS: Yes.
TH: Just the, you have mechanical abilities just with your trade background and, if a manufacturer…
TM: Persistent.
TH: Right, persistent, if a manufacturer’s going to require that to honor their warranty, you can see where that would be a little bit of a challenge. So I commend you on that, and you’re not alone. I would say that a lot of the community when it comes to residential, if a homeowner was to try to do that and attempt that on their own, they would run into the same scenario that you’re running into, it would never happen, right? So the one-year manufacturers have to put stipulations in place to protect them, protect their warranty, and they showed that, when you contacted Bosch, they absolutely showed that, Hey, we are going to make sure that this particular individual is maintaining the water heater like we put in our manual, hoping probably that that wasn’t the case. And we don’t want them to ever deny that warranty claim.
TH: But if you have a record of it happening over and over and over again, a lot of times it’s not the manufacturer, it’s the environment, right? It’s the environment. And when we talk about environment, good, just like with our bodies, right? Good food in, you get good results out. We would put good water in, we’re going to get good results out of our appliance. So that’s, I think really what they’re trying to identify when you’re talking water heater maintenance or anode rod maintenance in a whole.
TH: So the anode rod there is a protection device to protect that tank for sure through the duration of the warranty, but the manufacturer can’t control what’s going into it. So they’re putting that stipulation in place that, Hey, we recommend you to do this annually or bi-annually, or whatever the manufacturer is recommending. And you as a homeowner have to have that knowledge to be able to accomplish that. So that’s not very common. I would say most of the community doesn’t know to do any type of maintenance whatsoever, and it’s professionals that, like myself, that have to educate people to try to change that trend.
TH: Whether it’s coming with marketing that we do that, Hey, it’s time to do your water heater, tune up your water heater, flush, we get into the home, we have a face-to-face conversation with the homeowner about maintenance on that appliance. And we can show them how to do it and show them the resources they need, or we can put them on a plan where we can do that for them too as well, right. And a lot of different home service companies are going to offer that same service across the United States, because it’s becoming more and more of an issue when we talk about water going into it and getting the right water so it’s not damaging the unit prematurely.
RS: Okay.
TH: Yeah.
RS: Okay. Sure. So let’s see. A few other questions. Well, I got a lot. But first off, okay, the magnesium anode rod is completely gone.
TH: Yep.
RS: Where did it go? I’m assuming it disappeared into the water and me and my family consumed a whole ton of magnesium. Is that right?
TM: Good for you. Good for you. Most people have a magnesium deficiency.
RS: Yeah. Yeah. So I should be good on my magnesium consumption, right, Tim? What’s the deal there?
TH: Yeah, so let’s maybe step back a little bit and talk about the reason why there is an anode rode in a tank to begin with. So most water heaters, when we talk about tank type water heater, tank vessel, are made up of steel, and steel, as we know, if we put water on just raw steel, what’s going to happen?
TM: It’s going to rust.
TH: It’s going to rust, right, corrode, it’s going to deteriorate. So what manufacturers do to combat that is they glass line the steel tank. Glass lining is, it’s just like what it sounds like, they put like a sand powder in there, they heat the tank up and they flash that sand until it’s glass and they coat that whole tank. Well, unfortunately, that process is not 100% perfect. And what happens is you get little bitty imperfections in that glass lining that is going to be the first place that water’s going to attack, right? So the water’s going to go to that, that void, that hole, and it’s going to start attacking it. So we have one layer of protection to protect that seal tank. And that’s the glass lining.
TH: When the glass lining doesn’t protect the tank 100%, maybe it’s 95, maybe it’s 97, now we have to also put another form of protection in place to protect that tank. So that’s where the anode rod comes into play. Now, you mentioned magnesium. That is one of the forms of alloys that they use on an anode rod to protect the tank. It’s a less noble metal than the steel is. So when the water goes into it, it creates a little bit of currency. And I don’t want to get too scientific in this, but you need a certain amount of voltage to protect steel. Now, when you put that magnesium anode rod in there, it produces a small amount of current that’s going to protect that tank.
TH: So when it comes to anode rods, you have magnesium, it’s a less noble metal. You have aluminum, which is a less noble metal. You have sometimes they do blended with zinc. So depending on which region you are in the United States and kind of your water and makeup, they’ll use different types of anodes based on that.
RS: Okay.
TH: One of the, yeah, one of the things you guys might run across in the home inspection world is the consumer saying, you know, my hot water smells like rotten eggs when it comes to private wells. So when you have, you’ve heard that before?
RS: Yep. Oh, yeah.
TM: And smelled it.
TH: And smelled it before, right. So when you have a magnesium anode rod, that sometimes reacts differently to that private well than an aluminum anode rod would react to it. So that’s where they might go in and they pull, put in an aluminum anode rod, and then that might, might take care of that rotten egg smell.
TH: So the different alloys are different makeups. They produce different levels of current, so their protection level changes. And to take it a step further, because we’re talking about alloys, there’s also a powered anode rod, which will, it’s a current rectifier, so it’ll actually change the level of current that the anode rod’s actually producing based off of the total dissolved solids in the water. Where this is used more is in commercial application, but they’re starting to use it more in the residential market too as well. So to your point…
TM: Smart anode rod, basically.
TH: Yep. Yep. 100%. So it doesn’t require the maintenance that a traditional alloy anode rod requires. So if you have a consumer that’s interested in, a homeowner that’s interested in that maintenance portion of it, but just can’t do it themselves, they may want to invest in a powered anode rod system. If they have a high mechanical ability, it’s probably something they can do. Otherwise they should probably hire a professional to install it. And then it’s kind of a one-time shot deal. You’re not constantly replacing the anode rod.
RS: Sure. What does something like that cost?
TH: I think, you know, on the, just the retail market, they range anywhere from… The actual powered anode rod ranges anywhere from $100 to $200. So it’s a pretty low investment considering a magnesium anode rod, Reuben, you’re probably more aligned to that, to what I see them as. But you know, they’re $40 to $80, right? So…
RS: Okay.
TH: Yeah. Not quite a bit more, but when you think of the duration of how long a water heater will last with the powered anode rod in there, you might be able to get 20-plus years out of it. If you do not maintain your water heater, checking your regular anode rod, changing it when it needs to be changed, that’s going to shorten the life of your water heater, because now we’ve taken that level of protection completely out, which you explained with your incense stick referral.
RS: Yes.
TH: You had no level of protection left in that. So what did that water do? It started attacking the tank immediately, and now the tank failed. So that’s what’s happening. So it’s kind of a situation where if you’re not maintaining the water heater, you’re going to do more replacements. And typically what happens is people just replace, they replace, they replace and they’re not getting the holistic approach to it and actually looking at the reason why that water heater’s failing, and it gets down to the environment.
RS: Okay. All right.
TM: Wow. What would you say… I mean from, from a home inspector and house coach perspective, I’d say like 1% of the population actually changes anode rods or like drains their water heater. I mean, would you say that’s realistic? Most people don’t do this.
RS: I think you’re being super generous with your 1% test.
TM: 0.5% of people? I mean, Reuben does it.
RS: Yeah. That sounds more realistic.
TH: You mentioned two things there. You mentioned the anode rod service, but you also meant draining it. So I would say that more consumers would drain their water heater or flush it or whatever you want to call it, versus doing a little bit more major surgery and pulling out the anode rod. So there’s other components to the water heater that should be maintained too, the pressure, you have the T&P valve, that the yellow tag on it says that this should be tested once a year and inspected, I think typically it says every three years, you actually have to pull it out and inspect or replace it every three years. That’s not happening. We know that’s not happening.
TM: No, no.
RS: No.
TH: Right. So there’s all these different layers that go into place with this particular appliance that, again, if somebody doesn’t feel comfortable doing it that wants to extend their investment, should probably partner with a home service company that can provide that level of service to them.
RS: Okay. All right.
TM: I’ve got a question for you, Tim. Going back to just talking about the holistic approach and, you know, what are kind of the worst chemicals or minerals in water that will eat
away at your tank the fastest?
TH: So because I know a little bit of history with Reuben’s scenario, he lives in a municipality that…
RS: Maple Grove.
TH: Maple Grove. Yep.
RS: You can say it.
[laughter]
RS: Go ahead.
TH: I’ll let you say it. You’re the one that lives there.
[laughter]
TH: Yep. So they use, just like all municipalities are going to use some form of disinfectant. The municipality is responsible to getting safe water to the end user, to you, basically, to your home or to your tap. When you put oxidizers like chlorine or chloramine, if you add it to the water as an oxidizer, what it’s going to do is it’s going to do what it’s supposed to do. It’s going to start oxidizing.
TH: When you have a less noble metal, it could react with it, and it’s going to deplete it at a rapid rate, or a more rapid rate than if you were to put it on a private well where there’s no disinfectants in the water, if that makes sense. So, to Reuben’s case, he might have a higher level depending on where he is in proximity to the water tower or the water treatment plant. If they’re using chlorine or if they’re using chloramines, that’s going to determine, again, it goes back to the environment, that’s going to determine how rapidly that anode rod’s going to deplete.
RS: Okay.
TM: Interesting. So chlorine, what about like iron and stuff like that? Is that going to shorten the lifespan of the tank too?
TH: Yeah. No. So iron is mostly going to be fine. When you get to a municipality or when you’re paying for city water and it’s treated, typically, we don’t see a lot of iron. You might see a little bit of what’s called clear iron, but typically, we won’t see any red iron. You see iron on private well systems. So, because it’s not treated, you’re taking the water right from the source, bringing it up to the surface, and then whatever’s in it is in it.
TH: When it goes through the city’s processing procedure, any type of iron, they’re probably not going to have it in there when it gets to the end user, primarily to protect the infrastructure, their infrastructure when they’re delivering it to you. So to answer your question, iron’s typically not going to be a major concern, unless you’re on a private well, you have higher levels of it, now it can really move the needle on that particular appliance.
RS: And getting back to, like, just what you’re consuming, where does… If the magnesium disappears from that anode rod, where is it all going? Are we consuming that?
TH: Yeah. That’s a good question, and scientifically or even technically, I’m probably not the right person. Here’s what I do know. When it comes to an aluminum anode rod, if the manufacturer’s using aluminum anode rod primarily in their tank, you have a higher level of chloramine in the water. It depletes at a very rapid rate. I’m talking… You sometimes see it deplete within a month, right, 30 days.
RS: Woah.
TM: Woah.
TH: What you get then, is you got what’s called aluminum hydroxide, that will build up on the bottom of the tank. So if you’ve ever drained a water heater before and get, like, kind of a bluish green gel substance out of it, sometimes that can be aluminum hydroxide, and that’s the effect of that aluminum anode rod depleting. But what’s happening, I guess to maybe more answer your question, is you have an exchange that’s going on. And it’s kind of like a battery. Like, if you were to take a battery, a polarity effect that happens, and it’s exchanging those ions back and forth. And there’s a scientific thing that happens when you put that anode rod into the water heater. So, not it’s not necessarily coming out in consumption.
RS: Okay. All right. Well, that makes me feel better about all the, I don’t know, thousands of gallons of hot water that I’ve consumed.
[chuckle]
RS: ‘Cause frequently, if I want to boil water for cooking or I want a hot drink faster, I would just take the hot water from the tap. But I may have discussed this on the podcast a while ago, I ended up installing a reverse osmosis system, and now that’s all my family consumes is to wait for the cold water to heat up. We don’t drink the hot water anymore, but I think about, I don’t know, how many how many anode rods have I consumed in my lifetime? I know aluminum is not good for your body.
TM: No, and just bigger picture, I’m just wondering, like, what do you recommend for homeowners that are concerned about water quality, Tim? Like, what kind of system would you want in your own house if you were going to design something?
TH: Yes. It’s a really good question. There’s a lot of variables that go into place in that. So if, again, if we’re going back to municipal or city water and we live, let’s just say, within our area, the Twin Cities area and the suburbs, the first thing that you’re going to want to look at is possibly a water softener. And that’s what you’re going to see in most homes, right, is a water softener. The water softener is going to take care of aesthetics.
TH: It’s going to reduce or basically remove any, like, calcium and magnesium. But the sidebar of that is, what a lot of people don’t think about, is those chlorine and chloramines that I was talking about earlier, there’s an option for that too on a whole house level, where you can basically reduce or remove chlorine and chloramines with a whole house carbon filter. So if you are concerned about that, you’re going to want to have your water tested first to find out. Most home service companies, can test for aesthetics, for hardness, which is for for water softener.
TH: They can test for usually chlorine or chloramines. They’re going to be able to test TDS, which is Reuben’s talking about with reverse osmosis, total dissolved solids. They can test for iron. They’re going to have some sort of a test kit that can do all of that. All those things that I’m talking about, we just want to make sure that we’re talking about it on the aesthetics level versus the scare tactics level, the health concerns. That’s something you’d want to… You could get the professional water report and bring that to your physician or somebody that’s qualified to make the determination whether you need to remove that from your system. As a home service company, we’re just going to talk about what’s in your water and what we can reduce or possibly remove, not on the health part of it. Is that…
RS: Got it. Stay in your lane, huh?
TM: Yeah. Well, that’s interesting just to hear you say like, all these different things that can be in the water, from the minerals to the chlorine to these particles. And so really you need to… If you’re concerned about these things, you can do these series of tests to see what you have and then figure out what kind of system or systems would remove these concerns from your water. And it could be anything from maybe just a water softener to something more like a reverse osmosis system or a carbon filter, a combination of all of them. Is that right?
TH: Yeah, yeah. So you asked like, what would you kind of do in your house?
TM: Yeah.
TH: I live in St. Louis Park, right. And so what I have is I have a whole house carbon filter that has a catalytic carbon in it that basically almost completely removes any chlorine or chloramine that’s going to be going through my system. Then I have a water softener after that. And I also have a reverse osmosis system like Reuben’s talking about. But reverse osmosis is actually to… Unless you’re very concerned about fluoride in your system, it’s more of a subjective thing. I am not personally a fan of reverse osmosis water. So Reuben’s family, it sounds like…
TM: Why is that?
RS: Because of taste?
TH: Taste, yeah. First of all, I teach water conditioning. I teach water, right? I unfortunately am not a big fan of drinking a lot of water. [laughter] So if you can believe that or not.
RS: I’m very surprised, actually, Tim.
TH: I find it a struggle. Well, good for you guys. You have something in that water there that’s got a little…
TM: I put flavoring in mine sometimes. I get a little bored drinking three of these big bottles every day.
RS: We’re both holding up our water bottles to the camera. It’s great pod.
TH: That’s probably what I need to do. But here’s the thing. So with reverse osmosis, it’s a very subjective thing. It’s just like coffee or anything like that. Some people like creamer in their coffee, some people don’t. Some people like reverse osmosis water. Some people don’t like the taste of it. So I’m not a fan of it. But I’m also not the fan of tasting water that is like a swimming pool. So when the city puts chlorine in the water, I can tell right away. So I remove that with whole house carbon filtration. What that’s doing is it’s basically taking that out. So every tap in my house has that basically removed. Whether I’m drinking it or I’m ingesting it through bathing or through just breathing it, through showering, I’m removing that chlorine out of the water.
TH: And I do that at point of entry basically when it comes into the house and right after it comes into the house, [0:30:53.4] ____ separated and then it goes through whole house carbon filtration.
TM: So you probably don’t have to replace your anode rod every six months like Reuben should, huh?
[laughter]
TH: Well, I’m one above that. I have a tankless water heater in my house, so I don’t have an anode rod.
TM: Okay. That was another question I was going to ask you. This might be dumb, Tim, but do all water heaters have anode rods that need to be changed?
TH: That’s a really good question. Traditional tank, steel tank models are going to have anode rod protection in there. When we talk about electric water heaters, there are some manufacturers that make composite-style tanks that don’t require rods in it. And then also on the electric side, you can find some stainless steel models that don’t require anode rods as well. We’re talking far and few between. And I hate to put it in a percentage, but the majority of the water heaters that we run into are traditional steel tanks. They’re going to have some sort of anode protection inside of it.
RS: How about those gigantic marathon electric water heaters?
TH: Yep.
RS: Like 100-gallon or whatever. Are those all plastic?
TH: Yeah, so that’s what I was referring to with…
RS: For a composite?
TH: Composite. Yep.
RS: Yeah, okay. Got it.
TH: Yeah. So that’s not going to have an anode rod inside of it.
RS: Got it. Okay, cool.
TH: That’s a great, great question. That’s a great solution for a consumer that is on a private well that has electric only and that wants to avoid any hydrogen sulfide smell or rotten egg smell in their water. That would be a great solution for them.
TM: Sure, interesting.
TH: They still can get it, but it’s going to be less likely.
RS: Okay. Got it.
TM: And do you know anything about heat pump water heaters, Tim? Do they have anode rods in them? Would that be another option for people?
TH: They do, yep. So that’s also going to be a steel tank. So all a heat pump water heater is it’s just a traditional steel tank electric water heater that they’ve put the heat pump on top of as an alternative source of energy for it. They’re going to have anode. So they are a lot more challenging to replace, because typically you do have the heat pump on top of the unit and the anode rods on the tank side. So if you have 12, 15, 18 inches of heat pump on top of it, your anode rods down 12, 15, 18 inches, to Reuben’s point, now you start putting an impact wrench on there with an extension and you can’t get the torque to what you need to remove that traditional anode rod.
TH: And to be clear, a traditional anode rod is a 1 and 1/16th socket. It’s pretty universal. And impact wrench is how a professional’s going to remove it. Typically, they’re going to use a corded impact wrench. So if you are using a cordless impact wrench, even if it’s one to take off semi truck tires, success is not as typically as good as when you use a corded impact wrench to give that constant power.
RS: And just in case anybody missed it, just distinction in words here. What I was using was an impact driver. I was not using an impact wrench. I’ve got a nice big 18 volt Milwaukee impact driver, but not the same thing. That is not a mechanic’s tool, that is more of a carpenter’s tool.
TH: Well, there’s maybe one of the changes that we have right there. So you could pick up a quality impact wrench for $100, $150, and then you get the socket on it and you can go to town on it. I would say we’re pulling anode rods. We probably pull 20 to 30 of ’em a day across our platform.
RS: Wow.
TH: And I would say maybe once or twice a year I hear a story where either one is snapped off, because that’s what people are most concerned about, or number two, they can’t get it out. So it’s pretty rare with the volume that we’re doing. And because we’re typically at anytime we come into a maintenance issue on a home, and we’re doing a water heater maintenance, we’re going to be pulling the anode rod, so we do run across quite a few of ’em for volume.
RS: Okay. Got it. Tessa, you had something?
TM: Well, I was just going to say, so would you… Just big picture, would you say like a typical tank water heater with an anode rod, if you’ve got poor water quality and you’re not replacing the anode rod and draining the tank, flushing the tank, doing all these maintenance things, average lifespan could be anywhere from what to what?
RS: I can answer for Maple Grove. Six years, I think is a good average. I have replaced my own and several neighbors, many neighbors. After six years, it seems to become a magic number, maybe like six years and a day. ‘Cause typical warranties are for… They go as low as six years. Tim, what do you see?
TH: So very similar. Most manufacturers, their basic warranty is going to be a six-year tank warranty. That’s going to probably be the lifespan. We typically see eight to 12 years out of tanks in the suburbs. In the city, you’re going to see a little bit longer in Minneapolis and St. Paul or Richfield, you’re going to see water heaters last 12 to sometimes 15 years even without maintenance.
TM: Interesting. Twelve to 15 even without maintenance just because of the quality of the water, you think?
TH: Yeah. They actually soften the water at the city. They bring it down to not completely soft, but in a pretty good range. And they’re doing it for the infrastructure of the city. They take that expense on at the city level. If you’re in a city like Maple Grove where you have a little bit more aggressive water, now you have to pay a little bit more attention to that and decide whether it’s worth to make that investment over the duration of the life of the water heater and extend that life of the water heater, or if you just want to take that one hit and replace it every time it fails. And obviously we know what can happen when the water heater fails, how catastrophic that can be. To Reuben’s point, it’s a four-month insurance process.
RS: When you gotta install it above a finished space, yeah. Now, my last one, the last time my traditional whole house tank water heater failed, it’s in my utility room. There’s a floor drain nearby and there’s nothing catastrophic there. It’s just like, oh, there’s water on the floor where there shouldn’t be. Darn it.
TH: Unfortunately, that’s not the case for most homeowners. Especially when they have homes that were… In St. Louis Park, my house was built post-war, the floor, you could pour water in the basement floor in one corner, it’s going to run all the way to the floor drain on the other side of the house.
RS: Oh, gosh.
TH: We don’t see that. Yeah, we don’t see that. Unfortunately in newer construction, they could have a floor drain right next to the water heater, the water heater fails and the water runs completely to the other side of the house, doesn’t even run towards the floor drain. So you kind of take that gamble a little bit with it. Now, you’re talking about some really good things. You talked about the protection that you’re putting on your one that’s in a finished area. But people can invest in doing that on a traditional tank model. Even in an unfinished area, you can put a disaster pan in, they can pipe the disaster pan to the floor drain. They could put some sort of horn protection device in that protects. If there is a leak, it’s going to deactivate the water. You’ve taken those additional steps.
TH: But those are things that we’re finding that more and more people are interested in because they just don’t want to deal with the consequences of the cleanup, the insurance claim, the possible water damage to their valuables and stuff like that. So.
TM: I want to expand a little bit beyond just the conversation of water heaters. ‘Cause now my brain’s going, talking about chlorine and chloramines and all these things in the water that will potentially attack the inside of the tank, and that’s why you have the anode rods and then they just eat up the anode rods, I’m wondering how does this potentially impact the water distribution pipes in our homes? And are there certain materials of pipes that do better with the type of chemically-treated water that we have today? And the reason I’m wondering this is ’cause we actually had an inspector from Florida on our podcast recently, and he was talking about how insurance companies are concerned about…
RS: PEX?
TM: PEX. Yeah. PEX water lines in homes, and I’ve also heard of PEX failing in areas that have high chlorine in their water. And I’m just wondering if you know anything about that.
TH: Yeah. So it’s interesting that it’s coming out of Florida. The one thing about disinfectants in water is when we have a higher water temperature, that you have to use different levels of disinfectants to properly treat the water. So in a place like Florida where the groundwater temperature may be 70 degrees plus, they’re going to use high levels of that. We don’t see that a lot here in Minnesota where we have PEX failing because of water quality.
TH: There’s a couple of manufacturers of PEX that struggle on recirculation when they have hot water recirculation, and the PEX will get a little brittle. But to answer your question on different materials, most of the materials are very robust, and typically something in aesthetics is not going to cause a failure if it’s been installed properly.
TH: Where you start getting into problems with piping or water supply piping, there are two things. If you have pH that’s off, which is not going to be usually the case on city water because they’re going to correct pH, and then, also, if we have a current imbalance where we’re bringing a neutral back into a ground, and now we’re basically using that water piping system as a grounding system, that’s where you can possibly start getting into some issues with that, with pinhole leaks and things like that with failure.
TM: Oh, so if you’ve got metal piping like copper or galvanized steel, some older material potentially that we see a lot in the Twin Cities housing stock, like, if that is that part of the grounding bonding system of the house and it’s carrying current in it, that could potentially reduce the lifespan of that pipe?
TH: It could. Yep. It would be better explained by an electrician how that works. But I do know that it happens. And I do know that if you have unprotected current going through the water heater, if the cable company comes in and they ground their cable box to the water piping after the water heater and something malfunctions with that and it puts current back through, it could possibly cause premature failure on a water heater too as well. So, that uncontrolled current can be a real tricky thing as a plumber to identify, and that’s when you’re working with a complete home service company that also can tackle the electrical part of it too, you can find that as well. But a lot of plumbers typically aren’t going to look for that current across the hot and cold on the tank to see if that’s an issue.
RS: Okay. Alright. And you guys do that? You have an electrical component under your umbrella as well, right?
TH: Yep. Absolutely.
TM: Yeah, oh, go ahead.
TH: If it gets to be that the next level where we have to call in a specialist, that’s when we call in an electrician to tackle that. But we’re a large plumbing service company, so we’ve seen a lot. We haven’t seen everything, but we’ve seen a lot. So it’s one of the things that we do know how to identify when it’s going on. I would just say as a whole, being that I do have the… I’m fortunate enough to see a lot of other plumbing businesses, it’s not something that all plumbing businesses are going to know to go after.
RS: Okay.
TH: Yep.
RS: Got it.
TM: So electrical current could be an issue with our older housing stock that uses, like, galvanized steel or we’ve got copper pipes. But what I hear you saying is there are places like warmer areas, like Florida, for instance, that have to add additional chemicals to their water to make it safe to drink because the groundwater temp is so much warmer. And so those locations might have deterioration of piping like PEX that we don’t see here. Is that accurate?
TH: That definitely could be accurate. Yes. They’re going to have higher levels sometimes. They’re going to use maybe chloramine instead of chlorine. Chlorine’s volatile, so it basically depletes out of the system the further it gets away from it. So they’re going to have to use higher levels of it just because of the temperature and the chemical, the way the chemical makeup is of that. So absolutely, that could be possibly, yeah.
TH: The other thing we’re not as privy to here is they do have a lot of slab on grade houses where they’re running the water supply piping through the ground. There could be issues with that too as well. So I do have a very close friend that owns a plumbing company actually in Miami. So if you ever wanted to, we could definitely get him in this this podcast.
TM: Cool.
TH: He could probably talk about that too as well.
RS: Yeah. See what’s happening with PEX down in his area. That’d be interesting.
TM: Yeah.
RS: And so just to kinda wrap this part up on the maintenance, what you guys do for water heater maintenance is you’ll check the anode rod, you will test the temperature and pressure relief valve, and if it’s over three years old, you’ll actually pull it to physically inspect it, right?
TH: Mm-hmm.
RS: And then you drain the tank. And what does draining the tank look like? Or flushing, I should say, not draining.
TH: Yeah. There’s a couple different ways to do it, and really the best way is to just get some agitation on the bottom of that tank. Most steel tanks are… They’re kind of like a dome on the bottom of it. So what tends to happen is you get in the corners is where you’re going to get that sediment built up. So there’s a lot of different opinions on how this should be done, but you want to get some agitation going on. You want to try to remove some of that sediment, get it stirred up around the base of it and get it expelled out through the drain valve.
TH: And if you can get that done, you’re going to probably extend the life of it. Now, there is some thoughts around if the water heater’s at a certain age and the maintenance hasn’t been done before, you sometimes take a chance of possibly causing more issues than when you started, right?
RS: Yes. Yep.
TH: So, one thing that I would encourage people to, if they’re going to go and start doing, draining their water heater, take some things into factor. If the water heater hasn’t been maintained for a long period of time, chances are your results are going to be less successful. Where you could possibly have an issue with that, with the actual drain valve malfunctioning after you open and close it because you haven’t been exercising that valve. And with the potential of the drain valve now getting so much sediment in it that it now just doesn’t close at all. It completely plugs up.
TM: And you can’t put a cap on it, right, Tim?
RS: No. Wait. I’ve always told people you can cap, hold on.
TM: Can you? Can you?
TH: Yeah. So the drain valve has threads on it. So, yes, you can. The T&P valve is a different story. We don’t want to…
TM: Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.
TH: Yeah. Yeah. Drain valve has threads on it for a reason. A cap would be a temporary repair, till you could get a permanent repair on it. But some things that…
RS: Devil’s advocate.
TH: What’s that?
RS: Devil’s advocate. Now, hold on. What’s wrong with just leaving the cap on there?
TH: It’s probably fine. But if you have a little bit of a breach in that valve, it’s probably got a breach for a reason, right? Whether it’s not seating, the handle’s not… Can’t shut all the way because you have some sort of sediment in there, or maybe you have a fracture in that seat. If you put a cap on it, the weakest link’s going to fail, right? So it could potentially cause a problem in the future. It’s easy for me to say that because it’s… I obviously have the technical ability to replace that valve really easily.
TH: And a lot of times, what we’ll do is instead of just putting a regular traditional plastic valve back in, we’ll put a full flow type valve in that allows for the full flow, that’s a 3/4 inch threading that goes into the tank. So we put a 3/4 inch full flow valve in, so next time we do maintenance on it, now we’re getting full flow versus something that comes from the manufacturer that has a very small opening for the water to come out.
RS: Those things are so cheap that they put on there.
TH: Yeah.
RS: Yes. So when you say full flow, you’re talking like a quarter turn ball valve, probably.
TH: You could put a quarter turn ball valve on there. Yep. Let me also clarify one thing too with the cheap drain valves, right? They’re plastic. And a lot of times in tests, you might appreciate this as they’re plastic, sometimes for a reason. The reason is, is if you have a metal or alloy on there, it’ll expel energy. And they need to get it to a certain energy rating. And sometimes, all it takes is putting a plastic drain valve on there, and you see that little insulation sleeve that come sometimes sits over the T&P?
TM: Yeah.
TH: That’s the reason for that. It’s just they need to do that. They’re obviously testing it in best case scenario environment to meet those ratings.
RS: Sure.
TH: But plastic drain valves are used, one, to obviously make the water heater as least amount of investment to the consumer as possible. But number two is to add that energy that it’ll expel and radiate out.
RS: Interesting. Never would’ve crossed my mind.
TM: Me neither. And I wonder since it’s so cheap and plasticky, does the manual anywhere, Reuben, and the fine print say that you need to be replacing those valves every few years too?
RS: I’ve never seen that.
TH: No. Here’s what I know about plastic. When you talked about PEX failing, the one thing I do know is plastic drain valves do fail because there is a lot of heat that it’s constantly hot, cold, hot, cold. What a lot of people tend to do is they tend to put channel locks on it, and go to turn it, and it snaps completely off. And if you don’t have that water heater completely drained and you’re not a professional to pull vacuum on that tank right away, you could probably potentially get scalded, or you could have a flood.
TH: So, if you’re going to change out the drain valve, if it’s plastic, make sure that water heater’s… The fuel source, electrical source is shut down on it, your water’s shut off of it, and that you completely drain it before you service that valve.
RS: All right.
TM: You know what, Tim, you’ve talked me into not doing any maintenance on any water heaters.
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TH: Tessa, it’s probably better if you partner with a professional. You kinda watch them, have them go through everything. And because I’m sure that you’re technical-savvy, you’ll be able to pick it up and replicate it. It’s not for everybody. So, we need to have more people doing the maintenance on their water heaters, extending the life on it. And most home service companies offer that service for pretty low investment.
TH: They’re what they call kinda loss leaders. It’s one of those things, like, it’s to kinda help people out, but also kinda get in talking to people and talking to them about maintenance, right?
RS: Yeah. And now I got one more question about this dip tube and about stirring up the sediment at the bottom. If I don’t ask this now, I’ll never remember. Back in the day, probably 20 to 25 years ago, I remember seeing on the boxes of water heaters, some manufacturers on the 12-year warranties, the nicest ones they had, they showed a dip tube that would come down to the bottom of the tank, and then it would come all the way down to the bottom, and it would curve, and it would swirl around in the direction of the tank, so that when the cold water is let into the bottom of the tank, it creates this swirling action in the tank instead of just flowing straight down, pointing at the bottom of the tank where most do. Whatever happened with that? It seemed like a great idea. Why don’t they do it anymore?
TH: Right. You’re talking about the low dose [0:53:49.5] ____ and, that was something that was probably, mid-’90s, late ’90s, that we would see a lot of those. Most of those have been replaced since. Remember one thing. Like, not even manufacturers are in the business of making tanks.
RS: Aaah.
TM: That’s what happened.
TH: So, well, here’s the thing. I don’t know if we… There’s people that are going to debate that one way or another. But if one of your manufacturers in the business is making tanks, and they wanted that tank to last forever, they would probably just put a powered anode rod in ’em, or they would make them out of an alloy that doesn’t deplete at all, right, stainless steel or something like that. Gets to be cost-prohibitive. So it was probably a good idea. There’s probably something that’s comes about with cost-prohibitive, right?
TH: And maybe there’s something to be said about maybe it does extend the life of the tank just enough to… Sell enough water heaters. I don’t know. But you’re right. I have taken a lot of those out that have leaked. But I’ve also done a lot of water heaters. I did water heaters for three years. I actually, I did them for a home center here in the Twin Cities, and I was doing between three and six water heater change-outs a day. So I’ve done a lot, a lot of change-outs, and I’ve seen them all. They all leak. At some point, they all leak.
RS: All right. Death, taxes and water heater’s going to leak.
TH: Right.
[laughter]
TH: These are things we know.
RS: All right. Well, that’s certain. All right. Love it. Well, we’re kinda at time here. We’re over time for this one, but, Tessa, you got any questions that we need to get to before we wrap this up?
TM: I was going to say, we’ve been drilling Tim here… Yeah, we’ve been drilling him for, like, almost an hour, I feel like but, Tim, thank you so much for your time and your knowledge with all of this stuff. And I feel like, yes, I could keep going with questions, but for the sake of time, we’ll have to have you back.
TH: No. You guys have really good questions. I appreciate it and I appreciate you digging into this, because it’s really just making sure everybody knows that maintenance is going to extend the life of that appliance, their investment, and just different ways that they can go about tackling that. So I do appreciate it.
RS: Sweet.
TM: One final question for you. What would a homeowner expect to pay for some type of maintenance plan for their water heater if they’re working with a company like you?
RS: Oh, good question.
TH: Well, maintenance plan or water heater maintenance could be two different things. So if a home services company offers some sort of a maintenance plan, it’s typically going to be a monthly investment. It’s usually relatively pretty minimal. Like, my particular company offers a maintenance plan, but it covers plumbing, heating and electrical. So you’re going to get the water heater service, the plumbing, the complete plumbing inspection once a year. You also get the HVAC and the electrical inspections too as well. Not all home services companies obviously can offer that.
TH: That’s where we’re going to come out every year, and we’re going to do this maintenance that we’ve been talking about on the water heater. A lot of home service companies also advertise water heater maintenance where they’re going to give some sort of promotion. I know we have one that we run sometimes. It’s right around $30. We will come out and we’ll do that maintenance on the water heater for $29.95 or whatever it is.
TM: Oh, my gosh. You’re losing money doing that.
TH: Some companies… Yep. Exactly. Yeah. I think it’s really just about building the… Well, for us, we want to build that relationship with the customer. We want to partner with them long term, and we want to help them save on their investments with water heaters and stuff like that. So when we come out and we’re doing that, we’re doing all the steps that we’re taking, we’re talking about today. We’re also going to be testing their water, testing it for all these aesthetics. That would be part of that water heater maintenance that we didn’t really touch on, some of the other things that we do.
TH: If there’s a gas appliance, we’re going to be checking for gas leaks. We’re going to be checking for drafting, making sure everything’s safe, safe temperature. We’re going to be able to accomplish all those types of things too as well for that initial investment, which, yeah, you’re right. It’s a great deal. But in the end, we want to partner with the customer and hoping that if that water heater should fail and they need somebody to replace it, that we would be the person that they would choose to do that.
RS: Sure.
TM: So is that service a couple $100 a year for you to come out and check all those systems and maintain the water heater?
TH: Yeah. We offer it for… Our investment is $17.95 a month, but that includes the water heater, the whole plumbing system, which we’re exercising all the valves and everything in the house. That’s also going to give you your furnace tune up. It’s going to give you your air conditioner tune up and an electrical inspection once a year just to make sure all the breakers and stuff are tight and kinda going through that to make sure things are safe, checking smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors and things like that, you know?
TH: So it’s a very minimal investment that we have that helps just kinda… We help partner with that homeowner on all those home services that they could potentially need.
TM: That seems like a great deal ’cause you can easily spend a couple of $100 a year on just doing a furnace tune up. So if you can spend a couple $100 a year to do the furnace tune up and maintain the water heater and check for other potential issues, that seems like a great deal.
TH: Gives people peace of mind that… You know, it’s not an insurance plan, but it’s, we’re going to try to make…
TM: Preventative maintenance.
TH: The situation as best as we possibly can, right? And then if you should happen to have an issue, we’re going to be right there to help you out. So typically, when home service companies provide this, there’s priority scheduling and things like that that come along with it too as well.
TH: So if you’re a consumer looking for these, these are things that I would ask for. I would ask for what it all includes, and see if it does provide something like priority scheduling, something that happens on an emergency-type situation. Are you offering 24/7 services for these clients and stuff like that? These are good questions to ask if you’re going to be making that type of an investment.
TM: Wow. Very, very helpful. And I think there’s more and more homeowners these days, especially my generation. I’ll admit, I don’t want to take my anode rod out every year or two years or six months or whatever. So I think there’s a lot of homeowners that this kind of maintenance plan could really benefit. So thanks for for sharing all that.
RS: Yeah. Thank you, Tim. And if people want to get ahold of you, how do they find you?
TH: So we’re Legendary Home Services. For plumbing, it’s going to be under Paul Bunyan Plumbing. So any place you search for Paul Bunyan Plumbing in the Twin Cities, Blue Ox Heating and Air Conditioning, and EarlyBird Electric. So those are all that’s going to encompass all three of those trades. And we’re one of the larger home service companies in the Twin Cities, and we do offer 24/7, 365 service, and we always have. So, yeah. Absolutely.
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TH: Reach out if you need a hand.
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TM: They’re the triple threat.
RS: Awesome. Appreciate it. Well, thank you for all your time, Tim. This is just a treat being able to ask you all these questions and get good answers.
TM: Yeah. Thanks, Tim.
TH: Thank you very much, guys, for having me on.
RS: All right. Well, for the listeners, if you got any questions, email them over, podcast@structuretech.com. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time. Hear you next time.
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RS: You’ll hear us next time!