The owner of Eco Shaylee, Shaylee Oleson, joins the show to talk about how important environmental testing is. She talks about Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs), Electromagnetic Fields (EMFs), and anything that would make a person sick in their homes, workplace, and even in commercial buildings.
The show starts off with Shaylee explaining about her company and its background. She then answers some specific questions:
What is Building Biology?
Where do we get Certification Courses for Building Biology in the US? Who does the certification?
What is VOC? What is EMF? How do these affect us?
What is low VOC insulation?
How do you feel about electric blankets and grounded sheets?
How often do you do EMF testing?
Should we be concerned about overhead power lines, too?
What is the Blue smoke theory?
The following is a transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be slightly incomplete or contain minor inaccuracies due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Shaylee Olson: Building Biology is how we say it here in United States, but it is a science out of Germany. It’s a whole study over there of how the built environment actually affects your health. How does all of that actually affect you inside that built environment?
Bill Oelrich: Welcome everybody, you’re listening to Structure Talk, a Structure Tech presentation. My name is Bill Oelrich, alongside Tessa Murry and Reuben Saltzman, the three-legged stool. We are pleased to have with us, Shaylee Olson of Eco Shaylee. And we wanted to dig into some topics that we are not terribly familiar with as home inspectors. So on today’s episode, we wanna talk with Shaylee about her business. She is in the home inspection business, but it’s a different arena than we work in. And it has to do with mold and asbestos and VOCs and EMF and sort of these… I don’t wanna call them outlier things, but it’s nothing that’s laid out in the standards of practice that we follow here at Structure Tech. So I wanna take a second and have Shaylee introduce herself. Go ahead please, Shaylee.
SO: Hi everyone, this is Shaylee with Eco Shaylee. Glad to be here today, thank you so much for inviting me.
BO: Yeah, tell us a little bit about your business and how you got into it.
SO: Okay, sure. So if you want the whole story, it’s kind of a short story. But originally I was a professional photographer for a long time. And moved in to video and then film, and kinda saw the writing on the wall when digital was coming around and got out of the business. Then did a bunch of things just to pay the bills until I figured out what I wanted to do when I grew up. And happened to hear somebody give a talk on this thing called Baubiologie which was out of Germany, and I’m like, “Wow, this sounds fascinating.” And it really ticked all my boxes of what I would like to do. And so I took the classes and jumped in and here I am 15 years later still doing it [chuckle and adding to my repertoire along the way. So yeah, it’s been fun. And my business consists of doing environmental testing. So unlike you guys, where somebody has a real estate transaction, they’re selling a house, buying a house, and you guys go in and check it out, my whole focus is anything environmental. Anything that would actually make a person sick in their home or even at their workplace, in a commercial building. So things like mold, VOCs, formaldehyde, any of those things, EMFs, all those kinds of things are things that I check out.
Tessa Murry: That’s fascinating, Shaylee. When you said build biology, what was the class you said you took?
SO: Baubiologie or building biology, is how we say it here in the United States. But it is a science out of Germany, it’s actually taught in Europe, in colleges, which we don’t have… We’re not quite that fortunate here yet. But yeah, it’s a whole study over there of how the built environment actually affects your health. So it’s things like, what materials do you use to make a building? What about the air quality in the building? What about the electric and magnetic fields and WiFi and stuff like that? And how does all of that actually affect you inside that built environment?
TM: Yeah, that is absolutely fascinating and we don’t have college courses or degrees around that yet, but the closest thing I can think of is the Building Science world, we talk about air quality, we talk about building durability, but it doesn’t involve the other things like electromagnetic fields and off-gassing and stuff like that.
SO: Sure, yeah. I find it really fascinating here in the United States, how we’re focused on a green building, to most people means something that’s very tight and it doesn’t leak a lot of heat or…
TM: Energy efficient.
SO: Yeah, energy-efficient. And I’m like, “Okay, but that’s just one little part of the whole built environment.” What about the paint that you’re using, or the carpet or the drywall or whatever you’re building with? What about all the wiring behind the wall? It’s like, how is that affecting you? And nobody addresses any of that here. It’s completely unknown.
TM: So is there a certification done in Europe for people that do this?
SO: Well, yeah, in Europe, it’s in the colleges and stuff. Here, it’s a certification course, so yeah.
TM: Okay, so what is it technically called then?
SO: Building Biology or Baubiologie.
TM: Who does the certification then?
SO: It’s the Baubiologie Institute down in Florida.
SO: Yeah, so they have a lot of different courses that you can take depending on what you’re interested in. You can take just the EMF courses, you can take just the indoor air quality courses, you can take them all. I did them all, bang, bang, bang, just one right after another, jumped in and started doing it and I just… I love it. It’s really fun to help people. Myself, I personally was affected by a number of different things and had some health issues, which kind of led me to eventually find building biology. And it’s like, “Wow, these are some things that were making me sick.” I had chemical sensitivities. I was being sensitive to electric and magnetic fields and didn’t even know it, and so yeah, it was very eye-opening.
BO: So Shaylee, can we just define a couple of these acronyms, so everybody knows exactly what we’re talking about? So let’s start with VOC and then move on to EMF.
SO: Sure. So VOC stands for Volatile Organic Compounds, and it’s the off-gassing of chemicals when something is built. So if you build a new house or even a new car, once that is built, you get a certain amount of heat in that space. Like in your house, you turn on the heat and all of a sudden everything starts off-gassing, or it can be in the middle of summer even. But as soon as it’s new and it’s just been built, it is off-gassing, all those… It’s usually petrochemicals, which is really unfortunate. But all those gases start leaking out of whatever material that it’s in. And it can affect your health. You smell it. Like if you go into a brand new home, you’re gonna smell a lot of formaldehyde, a lot of VOCs, volatile organic compounds.
SO: And actually, with a new house, this is what a lot of people don’t realize is a new house, which is traditionally built how we… That’s not a green home here in the United States would take five to seven years to actually completely off-gas everything in the house. Now, it’s usually the first couple of years that the VOCs are actually the worst, and you’re gonna smell them more. You might not smell them after two or three years, they’re still there, not as strong, but it does take a good five to seven years to completely off-gas, and that would go for even if you were doing a remodel, or putting an addition on or something like that, where it’s not gonna be as bad, because it’s not the whole house, but people do have to think of that as well, if they’re sensitive to those types of chemicals.
TM: I’ve got a question for you, does an air exchanger help with that?
SO: Absolutely, yep. An air exchanger is great to have in the house for a number of reasons, because you’re gonna get all those chemicals out of the house faster with more air exchangers, it also prevents your windows from fogging up in the winter and getting condensation on them, which then can rot the windows, and then you’re gonna have a mold issue, and you’re gonna be calling me for that. And the one thing that I like to tell people is also, you should have a really good true HEPA air purifier in the house, either a stand-alone unit that you can put on different levels of the house, it just depends on how many square feet they do, or you could put one on the furnace. There are whole-house HEPA air purifiers, but it would have to do the VOC portion. So there is a difference. You can get true HEPA air purifiers with or without the VOC feature, so you have to make sure you know what it is that you’re trying to do.
Reuben Saltzman: I got a follow-up question on this, on VOCs. I’ve heard that basically anything you smell is the result of a VOC, and that not all VOCs are bad. I mean, if you’re smelling perfume, if you’re smelling fruit, you walk up to bananas and you smell them, that’s VOCs too. What do you have to say about that? Is that accurate?
SO: I guess I hadn’t heard it put that way, but I know with fruit or something like that, and that could be true, but with perfume and things like that, yes, those are… A lot of times they put phthalates in perfume that helps extend the life of the scent, and that is a chemical that you definitely don’t want on you, or to be around. And phthalates is a chemical that’s in many, many products, and this is kind of a whole another road, but I do talk to people about it, but it can actually affect your reproductive system and linked to cancers. It’s a really nasty chemical, but anyway, yeah, but VOCs, pretty much anything that has petrochemicals in it, anything that has a scent probably has a VOC in it.
RS: Wow. So if you are gonna build a new home, what would you do, or would you just not even consider living in a new home?
SO: You have to do what you can with whatever’s going on. Like right now my house is being worked on. [chuckle] I’m actually sitting here in a hotel while I’m talking to you, because I had an ice damp two winters ago. It actually created a mold issue, so they had to knock out a bunch of walls to cure the mold, and now we’re on the rebuild part of it. So I’m having them put up some VOC eating drywall, which has an anti-microbial in it, so yeah, that’s a really cool product, and I’m having a special type of insulation put in that wouldn’t mold and stuff like that. So the thing with the VOC paints is there’s a little bit of a green washing going on, so when a paint says VOC free or whatever, they label it as… Or low VOC, really, there are VOCs that are exempt. The government says, “We exempt these VOCs.” So they can put it in a paint and say it’s zero-VOC paint, but yet there’s still VOCs in it, so you have to make sure that you’re getting an actual paint that is non-toxic, and there are a couple of companies that do make non-toxic paints, but you have to specify that it’s a non-toxic paint versus a zero-VOC, because zero-VOC is not really VOC free.
RS: So I gotta ask, for the insulation, you said you’re using a low VOC insulation. What is that?
SO: So the insulation I’m putting in my house is actually rockwool, and a lot of contractors don’t like to work with it ’cause they’re like, “Oh, it’s really itchy,” blah, blah, blah, but it’s actually been reformulated to not be so itchy, and it’s really great for keeping mold out of walls, so it just… It’s not gonna let that grow. Yeah, it was quite the journey with my own house, [chuckle] having all this mold in there, and it was just… it was very eye-opening. I actually learned a lot from that, but I don’t think suggest everybody have an ice dam, it’s not fun.
BO: Isn’t it funny how that’s how most of our wisdom is gained is just through experience, and…
SO: Oh my God, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It’s just amazing. And then when they opened up, they had to get my kitchen, and I walked in after they did that, and I’m looking up at the ceiling and I’m seeing all this old wiring. The knob-and-tube wiring, and it was still… I don’t think it’s active anymore, but it’s still present there, and I’m like, “Oh, they are gonna have to rip that out,” because you don’t even want the inactive stuff up there, because they’re still wires, and when you’re talking about EMFs, the reason that they don’t use the knob-and-tube anymore, ’cause you have the hot separated from the ground, but it actually creates a magnetic field between the hot wire and the ground, and so you would have high magnetic fields in a house with the old knob-and-tube wiring, and even if it’s not being used, there can be a resonance that it gets from being close to the new wiring, so you should really remove it if you can. It’s not always practicable I get that, but…
BO: One thing here, and Reuben’s gonna raise his hand and he’s gonna just… So we don’t get a lot of people saying, “No, no, no.” Reuben, just kinda clear up the two-wire system real quick.
RS: With knob-and-tube, you do have a hot and a neutral wire. Those are the two wires in a knob-and-tube system, but I’ll tell you, I’ve been at homes where we’ll take this electrical tester, I like to call it a voltage sniffer. It’s a non-contact tester where you just get it close to a wire, and you just about touch the wire and it’ll set off your detector, or it’ll light up, or it’ll beep, but I’ve been in some houses where you’ve got knob-and-tube, and you can get it within a foot of that wiring and it’ll start going off because of exactly what you’re describing.
SO: Yeah, absolutely.
RS: You’ve got this huge magnetic field that’s trying to get to that other wire, and you said ground, I thought maybe you were talking about the Earth itself. I mean…
RS: That could happen too.
SO: I misspoke. I meant neutral. [chuckle]
BO: No, Shaylee, there’s no trouble at all.
RS: Either way.
BO: Very specific listeners, and sometimes they… I’m not saying anybody’s here to tear us down, I’m just saying, we just wanna be clear about what we’re talking about.
SO: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
RS: And one other. When you’re talking about that magnetic field on dead wires, I did a video that I put on my blog, probably about a year ago or so, where I was explaining how those electrical sniffers can fool you. And I had taken a dead wire and I wrapped it around a live wire a couple of times, and then I ran it out and I took my electrical sniffer and I put it up to this dead wire, and my sniffer told me it was a live wire because of induced current that I created. So you are spot on with that.
SO: What I like to tell people is, if you think of a tuning fork, and if you take a tuning fork and you strike it and you put it right next to another tuning fork that you did not strike, it will actually pick up that vibration and start vibrating and you’ll be able to hear it. Not a lot, but you will be able to. So that’s kind of how I explain it to people.
TM: That’s interesting.
BO: So Shaylee, can you just, EMF, explain what that is real quick.
SO: So EMF means electromagnetic field. In building biology, we kind of separate it into the E for electric fields and the M for magnetic fields. So E electric and magnetic fields. We really deal with those two fields the most. There are some building biologists that will also work with WiFi and cell phones and stuff like that. But the basic premise of what we do is working with these fields that come off of the wiring that’s behind your walls that you can’t see. So you’ve got all this wiring where you can’t see that goes to your light switches and your outlets and all of that, and it actually creates… It’s a live thing. It’s active and it’s not something that you’d obviously want to mess with, but it messes with you and you don’t even know it. So let’s say I have anything that’s even plugged into an outlet, create an electric field or magnetic field.
SO: So you have electric fields that they’re present all the time, so it doesn’t matter whether a light is turned on or off, or you have the toaster on or off, you’ve got electric fields that go out into the room a good 8 feet, maybe 10. It really depends on the size of the room and the size of your source. So those are hard to get away from, but they can be shielded. Let’s say you were redoing the wiring in a wall, you have an open wall or you’re putting on an addition or something like that. Now is the time to do it. So you can shield it with conduit and MC cable are actually something that can shield those wires from the electric fields that are coming out into the room.
SO: So if you think of magnetic fields, magnetic fields are different. Magnetic fields are generated when there is a draw on the line. So let’s say you turn on a lamp, turn on the toaster, the refrigerator turns on and you can hear it running, now you have a magnetic field that’s generated when that thing is on. And it does not go out as far as the electric fields, but there’s no way to shield it. So that’s kind of the bad thing, but the good thing is, it falls off very quickly. So it might fall off within a foot or two of the item that your largest magnetic field generator in your house is usually your refrigerator. Those are the types of things that I check. I have meters that can check the electric fields and magnetic fields.
SO: The most important thing, is in your bedroom at night when you’re sleeping. So the levels during the day can be higher, but at night they have to be super low so that they do not interfere with your sleep, your REM sleep. And the REM sleep is what people really need to get into for them to rejuvenate. Your body is resting, to recuperate from the day and get healthy and strong, and it helps your immune system when you’re in that REM sleep. The electric fields and it’s usually mostly electric fields, I don’t get too many high magnetic fields in homes, but the electric fields have to be super low so that it’s not irritating your nervous system and actually keeping you awake. Not physically awake, but your nervous system can feel that and get agitated and not get into that deep, deep REM sleep that you should be getting.
RS: So how do you feel about electric blankets?
SO: You can use them to heat up the bed, but then you have to unplug it. You can’t just turn it off because if it’s still plugged in to that outlet, it’s still going to affect you.
RS: So no sleeping with them on, you’re saying.
SO: No. Use it to heat up and then take it off the bed, unplug it. You should take it off ultimately.
RS: What about grounded sheets?
SO: There is… We probably shouldn’t get into that, there’s a lot of controversy in building biology about that.
TM: What’s a grounded sheet?
RS: Oh, I read this book by David Asprey. I think it was called…
SO: Earthing or something.
RS: Yeah, it’s basically, you have bed sheets and they have a small layer of metal inside them. It’s got copper woven throughout it, and you ground it, and it’s… Or earth it, they call it.
SO: Yea, earthing.
RS: And it’s making sure that there’s no electrical potential. I think it kinda does the same thing that a Faraday Cage would do. Making sure that there’s no fields that are gonna get to you or no electricity. I don’t totally understand it.
SO: It’s hard to… I’ve had it explained to me a number of times, and I still don’t know how to explain it, except that I know it’s very controversial. And a lot of building biologists are like, “No, you should not do that.” And it’s hard to explain how you measure it.
TM: Shaylee, how many clients do you work with that are concerned about EMFs? Do you do this testing a lot?
SO: Yeah, I would say with all the different things that I do, maybe, I don’t know, 20%, 25% of the people are looking for EMF type of testing. I would say a lot more for mold and asbestos and VOCs. EMF stuff is not really known here in this country. It’s information that is not widely available or accepted, like it is in Europe. In Europe, that’s… They do a lot of studying on that stuff. They don’t have the suppression of the information. Big businesses pay attention to that kind of stuff. Here, it’s like they don’t want you to know about that. Like cell phones are dangerous, but they don’t let you know that. They’re like, “No, they’re perfectly safe.”
RS: So Shaylee, what about overhead power lines? We talked a lot about stuff inside the house, what about outside the house? Do you have any concern over those?
SO: Absolutely, and there are a lot of variables to… That come into play with that, but definitely. The rule of thumb is always, you don’t want some big high power lines right next to your house or close to your house. Same with the cell phone towers, so the further away, the better. If you think of those huge monstrosities that they have along the freeways, like 494 and stuff like that, I wouldn’t wanna be anywhere near that. And I see some of those lines going right over commercial buildings, really close to town homes and things like that, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t know. These people are probably having all kinds of issues and don’t even know it.” But it can be measured. But you have your house that can deflect some of that, and it really depends on the building materials and all of that. ‘Cause stucco house is gonna be harder for signals to get through than a stick-built house.
SO: But it really… And if you’re up on top of a hill, and you’re in straight line with them versus there’s a hill between you, then that makes a difference. So there are a number of variables, but rule of thumb, if you’re seeing it, you should probably not be there. I would look for a different house, and I’ve had people who, with this housing market, unfortunately, they’re snapping up things that they shouldn’t be, and I had somebody who was… Actually, there was a huge power line, right… Literally, on their property. And this property was on a small lake, and they had a lake front, and they were looking at this house, but I’m like, “It’s right next… Literally, right next to your house, on your property, you don’t wanna do this, ’cause there’s things you can’t control with that.” You can control only so much inside the house, but that, you can’t control.
RS: I’m congratulating myself right now. I’m buying a house with stucco and steel siding on the outside. And I can tell you, you’re definitely right, nothing gets through here, ’cause I can’t get a cell phone signal to save my life inside my house.
RS: You’re definitely right about this. And it’s not my cell phone coverage, ’cause I step outside and it’s just fine.
SO: Good, yeah.
RS: So you’re saying no houses really close to overhead power lines. I will say that this is a topic as a home inspector that we would never touch with a 100 foot pole. It’s like, “Well, should I buy this? Is this a concern?” I’ll just say, “I have no idea. Not my area of expertise. Talk to somebody else about that.”
SO: You know, it’s really interesting, and we learned about this in building biology, but I’ve actually had a number of clients who were from Europe. I had one lady who was… She was from the United States, she lived in Germany for 20 years, and another person was actually from Europe somewhere. And these two people, one of them anyway, she lived in an apartment building that, right across the street, very close, was this huge power line going by and she pointed to that and she said, “They would never allow that in Europe. There are laws that they cannot be… Have power lines that close to where people live.” So they have all these laws over there, they’re so much more advanced in so many more ways, and here they allow it. It’s just like crazy. It’s just unbelievable.
BO: It’s interesting too, because we have so much more space in comparison, but yet we choose to develop lands sometimes that probably aren’t fit for development.
SO: Right, yeah.
BO: I have no opinion about growth, I’m not here to abdicate one way or another, I just… You notice, as our urban areas span out and we get beyond the loops, some of the best ground has already been taken, and so you’re left with the marginal ground. And sometimes that marginal ground was used for other things like carrying wire transmission lines or something like that.
SO: Right, yeah. That goes back to, in Germany, they accept this as, “Hey, these things cause a problem. Let’s not do this.” And here, they don’t wanna even talk about it. They know about it, but they don’t wanna talk about it, so let’s just keep doing what we’re doing.
BO: It’s one more reason to move to the cabin, Reuben. I can definitely get a cell signal there.
TM: You have the best sleeps of your life out there, Bill.
BO: It’s interesting that you note that, because yeah. Sometimes you hear people talk about that. “I went out in the woods away from people and I slept like a baby.” And I just think that’s because you’ve spent too much time in the sun, or too much time in the wind, or too much time on the boat, whatever it might be, and you’re just physically exhausted, but maybe there’s something to it.
SO: Yes. You wanna know what there is to it?
SO: It’s called the Blue Smoke theory. So have you ever heard of that?
SO: Okay, so the blue smoke theory says that if you could blow blue smoke into the air and it would light up every single type of invisible signal that’s going through the air, whether it’s a radio wave, a TV wave, electric fields, magnetic fields, WiFi, all that kind of stuff you would not be able to see your hand in front of your face. So if you think of being in the city, you cannot get away from that. It’s everywhere, right? I mean, I have a clock on my wall that every night at midnight it receives the signal from the atomic clock in Denver. It’s just like a split second, but that’s a signal going through the air, right? So it’s my clock is driving with the atomic clock.
SO: Well, when you’re in the city, you just can’t get away from any of this ’cause we’re so packed in here. You go out to your cabin, you go up north, and hey, yeah, of course, you’re gonna have a good night sleep. You might have electricity in your cabin, but you don’t have all this other junk floating around that’s affecting you. So I always tell people, yeah, when you go up there, you think, “Oh, it’s just so relaxing, ’cause it’s beautiful and I don’t have to think about work.” Well, of course that’s some of it, but the rest of it is that you’re not in this soup of all this stuff going on in a really populated area.
BO: So Shaylee, can I ask you a question about this? Because Europe is a very… There’s density, and then there’s space and there’s density and there’s space. And so how do they manage this type of thing in the dense, dense areas?
SO: It’s hard. I mean, there’s only so much you can manage in your house. I do not like town homes, or apartments, or condos or anything like that, because you can’t really manage what other people are doing, and you can’t really protect yourself, and I know not everybody can live in a single-family home, I get it. But if you are fortunate enough to have a single-family home, you can work, figure out which electric and magnetic fields are affecting you, where they are in your house. One of my services… Well, I call it the hot spot, the EMF hot spot check. So I come in and go around with my electric field meter, my magnetic field meter, and we see if there are hot spots in the house that could be either fixed or avoided, so you know what’s going on where, and then that helps you to live better in your house and more healthy.
SO: But there are certain things that, there are other things that people can do with shielding and stuff like that, which is kind of a whole another thing that’s kind of hard to do. You have to really know what you’re doing, so you’re not bouncing fields around and being a shooting gallery. So you don’t want that to happen. So if you do it wrong, you can actually make things worse. I had a friend, he had a bedroom in his brother’s town home and he was being affected by the Wi-Fi from the neighbors, and he put up this big EMF shielding sheet on his wall, and all of a sudden it was actually worse because there were electric and magnetic fields and whatever coming from other walls and things like that because he was just shielding one wall. And so now all of a sudden, it’s like he’s in this shooting gallery and things are bouncing around and it just made it worse. He had to take it down.
RS: I just gotta ask ’cause I have this in my head. I can’t get rid of it. Has anybody watched Better Call Saul?
RS: Alright forget it then. There’s three seasons where this guy is just so affected by EMFs and he can’t even leave his house. And he’s got tin foil covering the entire inside of his house. It goes on for a while.
SO: I’ve never heard of it.
RS: Alright. Alright well, if anybody watched it, they get the reference. Nevermind.
SO: I’m gonna have to look for it now.
BO: Well, Shaylee, thank you. I wanted to dig into VOCs and I had a ton of questions about off-casting and things like that, but as tends to happen when we start conversations on a podcast, we just allow it to go wherever it goes and you end up learning something that I had no idea about. And I know there’s theories out there about why we as a population are acting more odd than we used to. Maybe it’s because of EMFs. I don’t know.
SO: Never know.
BO: But it’s really interesting. I had no idea that there was this clear divide between Europe and the United States when it came to this discussion.
SO: Yeah, it’s huge. You know there was a… A few years ago, actually in France, they passed a law that all daycares with children three and younger could not have any Wi-Fi in their building at all, because they knew that this affected people and especially kids. And so they actually passed a law that up to three years old, you cannot have Wi-Fi in their daycares. That’s advanced, man. That’s really forward thinking.
BO: So one last question and then we’re gonna have to wrap up the episode, but how old is the science on these waves that are floating around through the air, EMF or electrical or magnetic or whatever?
SO: I would have to look that up. I don’t know if it started with the Baubiologie movement or if it was before that. I apologize. I can’t answer that.
BO: Well I’ve stumped the expert. So my day’s… I have accomplished something this day. Awesome, well, Shaylee, can you tell everybody where you can be found on the internet?
SO: Absolutely, yup, it’s just ecoshaylee.com. And if you type that in, all kinds of stuff will come up, so you’ll see me all over the place.
BO: Sounds good. Do you enjoy what you’re doing on a daily basis?
SO: I love what I do. I love being able to help people because there’s so many sick people out there from all kinds of things like mold or they have asbestos concerns or the VOCs. And being as with my background, I used to be affected by things as well and have health issues. Really nice to be able to go out and give people hope and tell them there are solutions. You can get better. So I love it.
BO: Awesome, well thank you very much for your time.
TM: Oh, thank you.
BO: We appreciate it.
SO: Thank you.
BO: Thank you everyone for listening. You’ve been listening to Structure Talk, a Structure Tech presentation. My name is Bill Oelrich alongside Reuben Saltzman and Tessa Murry, and special guest Shaylee Olson today. Thanks for listening everybody. We’ll catch you next time.