PODCAST: Sewer Repair Methods, Part 2 (with Noah Gavic)

To watch a video version of this podcast, click here: https://youtu.be/B4lgieKGvtI

In this episode of the Structure Talk Podcast, hosts Reuben Saltzman and Tessa Murry welcome back Noah Gavic from Brothers Underground to discuss various sewer types and cleaning techniques. Noah shares insights on the most common pipe types, including cast iron and clay tile, and explains the importance of proper cleaning methods like chain cleaning and jetting. They cover the risks associated with DIY drain cleaning and the costs of hiring professionals for sewer maintenance. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of sewer lines, discussing the various types of pipes used in plumbing, their historical context, and the responsibilities of homeowners regarding shared sewer lines. They explore the implications of different materials, such as cement, asbestos, and Orangeburg, and the modern alternatives like PVC and HDPE. They also discuss the lifespan of these materials and the importance of proper installation to avoid costly repairs and various aspects of sewer line repairs, focusing on the importance of proper techniques, materials, and the need for homeowners to hire knowledgeable professionals. They delve into the geographic variations in sewer materials, the process of accessing and repairing sewer lines, and the different methods and technologies used in pipe lining. They emphasize the significance of understanding the complexities of sewer repairs and the potential pitfalls of hiring inexperienced contractors.

Here’s the  link to Noah Gavic’s company: https://www.brosunderground.com/
Check this link to Tessa’s website: https://www.yourhousecoach.com/

Takeaways

Noah Gavic has 21 years of experience in the plumbing industry.
Brothers Underground focuses on educating customers about their sewer options.
Cast iron and clay tile are the two most common sewer pipe types.
Roots intrude into pipes primarily through leaks, not through solid walls.
Chain cleaning is a high-speed, low-torque method for cleaning pipes.
Improper chain cleaning can damage pipes, leading to costly repairs.
Jetter machines use high-pressure water to clean pipes without damaging them.
Homeowners should be cautious about DIY drain cleaning due to potential risks.
Professional drain cleaning costs can range from $300 to $2400 depending on the service.
Knowing the length of a sewer line is crucial for effective cleaning. Access to sewer lines can be forgotten or lost.
Sewer line lengths can vary significantly based on connections.
Homeowners share responsibility for shared sewer lines.
Historical codes have changed regarding sewer installations.
Cement asbestos pipes are common in homes built in the 50s and 60s.
Orangeburg pipes are known for their poor durability.
PVC is the most common pipe used today, but it has limitations.
HDPE is flexible and resistant to breaking under pressure.
Proper installation is crucial to avoid future plumbing issues.
Lining pipes can extend their lifespan and prevent leaks. Proper sewer line repairs require the right materials and techniques.
Geographic variations affect the types of materials used in sewer systems.
Accessing sewer lines can be done through clean-out access points.
The lining process involves inserting a liner that hardens in place.
Different methods exist for lining pipes, including pull-in-place and inversion techniques.
Curing methods for liners can vary, including steam and UV light.
Choosing the right materials is crucial for effective repairs.
Homeowners should be cautious when hiring contractors for sewer repairs.
Lifetime warranties on repairs may not be reliable.
Educating customers about their options is essential for making informed decisions.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Brothers Underground
01:01 Noah Gavic’s Background and Company Overview
02:38 Exploring Different Sewer Types
03:00 Common Pipe Types: Cast Iron and Clay Tile
07:51 Chain Cleaning Techniques Explained
10:02 The Risks of Chain Cleaning
12:37 Understanding Jetters Machines
16:32 Homeowner Drain Cleaning Equipment
19:32 Cost of Professional Drain Cleaning
22:08 Importance of Knowing Sewer Line Length
23:45 Understanding Sewer Line Lengths and Connections
25:31 Sewer Line Responsibilities and Ownership
26:38 Historical Context of Sewer Line Codes
29:07 Types of Pipes: Cement, Asbesto,s and Orangeburg
32:28 Modern Pipe Materials: PVC and HDPE
35:15 Lining and Rehabilitation of Pipes
37:49 Lifespan of Different Pipe Materials
43:15 Understanding Sewer Line Repairs
44:33 Geographic Variations in Sewer Materials
45:10 Accessing Sewer Lines for Repairs
47:21 The Lining Process Explained
48:17 Determining Repair Methods
51:11 Different Lining Techniques
55:03 Curing Methods for Liners
59:10 Choosing the Right Materials
01:01:13 The Importance of Hiring Experts
01:03:42 How to Contact Brothers Underground

TRANSCRIPTION

The following is an AI-generated transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is mostly accurate, it will contain some errors due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Reuben Saltzman: Welcome to my house. Welcome to the Structure Talk podcast, a production of Structure Tech Home Inspections. My name is Reuben Saltzman. I’m your host alongside building science geek, Tessa Murry. We help home inspectors up their game through education, and we help homeowners to be better stewards of their houses. We’ve been keeping it real on this podcast since 2019, and we are also the number one home inspection podcast in the world, according to my mom.

 

Reuben Saltzman (00:00.624)

Welcome back to the show. This is the Structure Talk podcast. I’m here with my co-host Tessa Murray and we’ve got repeat guest on Noah Gavic from Brothers Underground. We had Noah on the show. What was the test like about a month ago or so? Yeah, a little over a month ago. Yeah. And meant to get on a little sooner and I just kind of slacked on it. But here we are. We’re back. And we saw I’m calling this part two.

 

Tessa Murry (00:17.285)

Yeah, I think so. Roughly.

 

Noah Gavic (00:19.317)

my God.

 

Reuben Saltzman (00:29.25)

If you didn’t already listen to part one, check it out. You can hear all about this company and what they do. I’ve known Noah for a while now. Brothers Underground is kind of our go to when it comes to us doing a sewer inspection and then somebody needs something done on the sewer. We call it Brothers Underground. They do a fantastic job. Noah, just to reset.

 

Can you give me the little 30, 60 second version of who you are and your company or and what you guys do?

 

Noah Gavic (01:01.622)

Yeah. my name’s Noah and, obviously, so I’ve grown up in this industry. My dad is a master plumber and, I’ve been doing this for 21 years now. So when I was 17, doing sewer and water with him, and, he owns one of the bigger shops around town. You’d already kind of talked with Tim Hammack at, Paul Bunyan Plumbing and Dream before, grew up, it learned a lot of stuff from him and all the other different people there. And that’s really helped.

 

build where we’re at. so me and my brothers started with my dad’s company and we’ve moved on to now our own company. Once he’s kind of moved out of the business and really just kind of built on what his foundation he created in us and try to make it so that we’re giving the best experience to the customer so that they are educated in what they know. We’re explaining it in such a way that they go, I don’t feel pressured to pick this option, but I actually want to pick it because you guys explained it so well to me.

 

Just kind of giving them the options and letting them make the informed decision instead of giving them a scare tech that says Hey, your shoe is gonna fail the next day. We need to dig it now kind of thing. So

 

Reuben Saltzman (02:08.348)

Yeah. Cool. Well, during the last show, the way we kind of ended was we were talking about different sewer types. think the last thing we covered, we well, the last thing we talked about on the show was we had briefly discussed the idea of sand rock sewers and where to find those and how rare they are. But we never really got into any other types of sewers, all the most common stuff. And I was thinking it might be fun and

 

Tessa Murry (02:09.01)

Mm-hmm. that.

 

Reuben Saltzman (02:37.854)

I also got a request that we get a rundown on the different sewer types from you, Noah. Like talk to us about what it is that you see out there, the good, the bad and the ugly, what’s especially tough to repair, what’s easier to repair, what’s a good one, what’s a bad one. Guide us through all the different stuff that you typically see.

 

Noah Gavic (03:00.846)

Sure. Yeah, the two most common types of pipe you’re going to find, there’s going to be probably cast iron and then it’s going to be clay tile pipe. Those are the two most common you’ll find in almost all the cities. Minneapolis, St. Paul, you’ll find that primarily that’s almost all they had. So cast iron was used usually inside the building and stubbed out usually about two to three feet outside the foundation of the wall. And that’s usually made in four inch diameter pipe. And then a lot of times in

 

and like I specifically Minneapolis and St. Paul, you’ll find it go to six inch clay tile piping. So that clay tile piping, think of it like a terracotta or like a pottery style pipe. It’s got a glaze on the inside, glaze on the outside, and sometimes there four, but typically two feet long. And you have a hubbed end that has a bell on it, and then you have a bare end. And what they do is they stick that pipe together and they’ll either use a pitch of mortar or some kind of asphalt product. Some of them you’ll find they have a rubber gasket and the newer ones, but

 

very rarely will you find that. And so what they would do is connect those two together and then every two feet you’re gonna have a joint. That pipe overall structurally is usually pretty solid but it’s known and very prone to leakage and that’s leakage is what causes root intrusion. So roots aren’t gonna just find a pipe and say I’m gonna see if I can push my way in here. No they find water, they find nutrients and they work their way into a pipe. So that’s the biggest thing I think like a lot of people go well how do the roots get in there?

 

Tessa Murry (04:13.938)

Hmm.

 

Noah Gavic (04:26.222)

Do they just find the pipe? No, they’re finding a leak in your piping and they’re following that nutrients back in. They’re not smart enough to just say, hey, here’s a hole, here’s a pipe and here’s something solid, let me see if I can get in. So terracotta or also known as clay tile and cast iron are the two most common pipes. Clay tile usually does not get a bunch of debris on it. It’s usually pretty clean. Everything slides through there pretty well as long as the glaze is on there. But like I said, the issue with.

 

That is just every single joint that tends to leak. And then two, if there’s enough pressure applied, terracotta can also crack and break. And what will happen too is especially you’ll get root intrusion coming into the line. And every time it comes in a joint, it keeps growing. And there’s one taproot usually that grows down that pipe. And as that taproot continues to increase in size, it has to push against something. So it’s gonna push against the grounder on the outside, but it’s gonna push against the hollow pipe. And I guess you gotta guess which one’s gonna win.

 

Reuben Saltzman (05:23.123)

Yeah.

 

Tessa Murry (05:23.866)

and

 

Noah Gavic (05:24.27)

the ground’s gonna stay there and the pipe’s gonna crush. So long term people go, well, how long do I have? I said, you know what? It’s not a matter of if it’s going to happen, it’s when it’s going to happen. And I can’t give you an exact on it, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t have a magic ball thing or I can’t see the future. But it gets to a point where we can line it right now if you wanna line it. If it gets to a point where that breaks and we can’t line it, then you’re digging it, there’s additional cost involved in that. So we go over the details and explain kind of the differences.

 

Tessa Murry (05:53.555)

Thank

 

Noah Gavic (05:54.094)

of what that looks like. Lining usually is a little bit less expensive because there’s heavy equipment and other things that have to be restored afterwards. So terracotta clay tile is probably the most common St. Paul Minneapolis, but other cities around too. Cast iron, the issue with cast iron typically is just that it develops scale buildup on the inside. kind of like you’ll see like an old F-150 where the fenders are all roached out and you’ll see that flaking that happens. That same kind of thing happens inside the pipe. The pipe actually will start to kind of

 

the layers of that cast iron will rust and they’ll kind of create almost, we’ll say fingers inside the pipe that will catch debris. And there are ways to go ahead and tackle that where you can go in there and use what’s called a high speed chain cleaner or a miller or a pico people call it. And you can use that to basically ream that out and mill that out to the existing OEM of the pipe. The problem is sometimes that cast iron has cracks or breaks in it. And when you go to ream that out, you’ll find those defects that

 

Tessa Murry (06:50.738)

Thank

 

Noah Gavic (06:53.26)

now present themselves that were covered with scale buildup before. So that’s one of the issues with cast iron piping. And then two, sometimes, like I said, just today I was actually looking at one, and the old cast iron when it was poured, usually it was poured in a sandcast, and so sometimes you don’t always have an even wall thickness on it. You’ll have a thin side and you’ll have a thick side, because that sandcast shifted a little bit when it was poured. And so what happens is sometimes that thin side is the one that cracks.

 

Tessa Murry (07:00.498)

Thank

 

Noah Gavic (07:21.166)

and you’ll end up with what they call trench rot where the bottom is basically missing out of the pipe and just rots out of there. Also too, it’s susceptible for like a lot of times if you’re in like a commercial building and it’s the pop line, something to do with the CO2 in the pop line will actually eat away at that cast iron pipe and cause it to literally rot out. And so those are usually what go first. So cast iron and clay tile are your two most common. And then we’re probably going to, do you have question?

 

Reuben Saltzman (07:51.068)

Well, I do. Just when you were talking about doing the chain cleaning, can you just describe a little bit more of what that looks like?

 

Noah Gavic (08:00.514)

Yeah, so the chain cleaning basically uses…

 

Think of it like a braided cable, okay? And it’s in a sheathing, and it’s lubricated inside the sheathing. And what you do is you push it down the pipe, usually you’ll have a camera next to it, and you’re gonna use these high speed, think of it almost like a football style chain, so it attaches on one end, attaches on the other, and then the chains kinda go up and create a football pattern. And.

 

Reuben Saltzman (08:07.953)

Okay.

 

Reuben Saltzman (08:27.816)

Totally tracking. Yep. Gotcha.

 

Noah Gavic (08:29.77)

And that line, so you push that down there and you gotta space it correctly so that it just barely kisses it, just touches it nice lightly. otherwise what’ll happen is especially if it’s not set up correctly, you’ll see it just go whap whap whap whap whap around there. I’ve come behind people where they’ve tried cleaning clay tile and you’ll see that they haven’t spaced or changed correctly and it’ll just shatter the pipe, just wreck it.

 

Reuben Saltzman (08:36.496)

huh.

 

Reuben Saltzman (08:42.6)

Yeah.

 

Reuben Saltzman (08:50.982)

Yeah, that’s that’s kind of what I was getting at is I’ve heard horror stories of that happening.

 

Tessa Murry (08:51.218)

1. Hmm. no.

 

Noah Gavic (08:56.142)

Yeah, so if you’re not educated in doing it correctly or your cable has a kink in the end of it and it sits there, it’ll just bounce all over the pipe and it’ll just, it’s a great way to sell sewers, but not honestly about it, let’s put it that way. So.

 

Tessa Murry (09:07.365)

Okay.

 

Reuben Saltzman (09:09.338)

1. OK, so let me ask you, there was there was one horror story that I heard about where somebody had done a chain cleaning on a drain and it all got broken apart like the drain got destroyed. And then I think there was a lot of controversy here because, OK, it’s going to be really expensive to fix this destroyed pipe. Well, the the people who had done the chain cleaning said, well, you had a bad pipe.

 

Tessa Murry (09:10.002)

you

 

Reuben Saltzman (09:37.926)

I mean, we did the cleaning and it simply just revealed that your pipe was bad as part of the cleaning. But then the homeowners were going, no, you busted it. It wasn’t bad beforehand. How can you prove that? How would anybody ever know? And I mean, what’s the likelihood? I mean, now after you describe the process, it sounds to me kind of high, but what are your thoughts on all this,

 

Noah Gavic (10:02.734)

So I explained drain cleaning. This is kind of be a two-fold thing. When people ask me what’s the process I should go, should I just do a regular cable machine? It’s got a U-shaped blade that goes down there and cuts away at the roots. I say, well, that’s kind of like using a lot of force and a dull blade to kind of, a dull knife to kind of cut those roots away. You basically are grabbing onto them, using all that thing and just muscle and just ripping them off. Chain cleaning, it’s high speed, low torque.

 

So a draining machine is high torque, low speed. So they’re a little bit different in that aspect. If done correctly, a chain cleaning can be very effective, but it’s almost like, think of it like a scalpel for cleaning. I use it as a scalpel. A scalpel can cause somebody to bleed out, but a scalpel can also save somebody’s life. And so if you use it in the right way, it can be a total benefit, but if you use it in the wrong way, you can butcher a pipe like crazy.

 

Tessa Murry (10:38.226)

That’s it.

 

Noah Gavic (11:01.582)

Clay tile typically is more, sorry, cast iron is more forgiving than clay tile. But like I said, when I talked about the inherent defects of descaling a pipe, a lot of times those are already in there. So when we talk with customers and explain the difference in what we’re gonna do, usually descaling is part of the process of when we go to line it, we’re gonna remove that scale buildup so we can get a full diameter liner in there. There are circumstances where I’ll do it other than that, but I always tell the customer, hey,

 

I’m obviously removing some of your piping here. So you have to understand that I’m removing a layer of that piping. If that piping is compromised underneath it, that could cause an issue for you. So it’s all about making sure, I hate to call it consent, but that’s really what it is. You’re making them understand that there is a potential risk here. I can go in here and do a light cleaning on it. So we’ll make sure those chains are pulled a little more tighter. And so they’re not just, they’re kind of floating in the air and just barely skimming it.

 

Reuben Saltzman (11:43.377)

Okay.

 

Noah Gavic (11:56.524)

and just taking off the rough bases of it and making it smoother, but not actually taking it back to like the full black pipe. So we’ll go through different routes with people and explain the pros and cons, but yeah, you could go ahead and demolish a pipe. Usually though, if it’s cast iron pipe that you’re demolishing, usually it’s because there’s already an inherent defect in that line. Now you could rip through PVC, asbestos, especially orange brick piping. We’ll go into more detail on that later.

 

Reuben Saltzman (12:17.298)

Okay.

 

Reuben Saltzman (12:23.762)

Yeah. OK. All right. And just one more follow up before we continue on. Have you guys ever destroyed a pipe doing something like this?

 

Tessa Murry (12:25.326)

huh.

 

Tessa Murry (12:33.106)

He can’t say that on air, Ruben.

 

Noah Gavic (12:34.103)

You

 

Reuben Saltzman (12:35.492)

Okay, all right, fine. Next question.

 

Noah Gavic (12:37.356)

No, I can say it. Yeah, like I said, I’ve come across inherited defects that we’ve exposed by cleaning it. If that helps you understand it. Intentionally destroyed a pipe? No. That’s not how I roll and no.

 

Tessa Murry (12:38.962)

you

 

Reuben Saltzman (12:44.35)

Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (12:45.066)

no.

 

Reuben Saltzman (12:51.088)

I’m sure you never intentionally did it. I’m just wondering like by accident because you said like if it’s flopping around, it’s banging on the sides like you could wreck one unintentionally.

 

Tessa Murry (12:53.753)

Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (12:58.514)

Mm-hmm.

 

Noah Gavic (13:01.006)

Yeah, well that’s why we use, we look at it, some people just put it down there and just run it. No, no, no, no. The majority of companies nowadays actually use chain cleaning as their drain cleaning method. Most people have gone away because the machines have become lighter and they’re able to get in there. They use that as a drain cleaning tool. Now it’s not always the right tool to use. It is a tool and it should be used in the right application. But more and more companies are going, well our guys don’t want to lug down 150, 200 pound machine.

 

we’re gonna give them the 75 pound flux shaft machine. They’re gonna run it down there. Oh, they can’t get it open. We’re gonna upsell it to a jetter here and make another 2,500 bucks on a jetter. And then once we get that cleared out, we’re gonna upsell them to another 10 to 15 grand sewer repair. So it’s kind of a sliding scale of what ends up happening. And that’s kind of the part that’s like less people are carrying drain machines. Drain machines are becoming outdated.

 

Reuben Saltzman (13:47.058)

Man.

 

Noah Gavic (13:56.11)

When say jay machines, I say it in a sense of we’re talking like regular auger, rotor, router, snake. That’s what people would call that. And so they don’t use, not as many people use that. It’s a great unblocking tool and it can be used as a great cleaning tool. But like I said, it’s more blunt force versus fine tune.

 

Reuben Saltzman (14:13.584)

Okay, all right. yeah, you bring up Jeter. Sorry, I keep digressing, but I got questions, Noah. I got questions.

 

Tessa Murry (14:21.798)

Thank

 

Noah Gavic (14:22.904)

So a jitter basically uses, you can go, usually if you’re gonna clean anything with root intrusions, you’re gonna want about a 4000 PSI jitter minimum to get rid of the soft media we’re gonna call it. So any root intrusions, any buildup, any stuff in the piping. It’ll also pull off some of the minor scale that’s in piping. So if you have cast iron that has some scale buildup, it will pull off some of that minimal in there. I usually liken a jitter to the

 

Tessa Murry (14:36.058)

in order to follow through.

 

Noah Gavic (14:54.274)

The best way to clean a pipe without wrecking it, because what it’s gonna do is it uses high pressure water and that high pressure water will cut through the soft media. So kind of like if you’re cleaning your driveway off and you have like roots coming up through a crack in the thing and you’re using your pressure sprocher and you go ahead and you run it over that crack and it pops those roots out of the line, but it doesn’t wreck the actual concrete, right?

 

Reuben Saltzman (15:13.49)

Yeah, very satisfying.

 

Noah Gavic (15:19.246)

The same kind of process works for a jitter. It uses basically one nozzle going forward in a conical fashion, two going backwards, and there’s also a couple different heads. So depending on the situation, we’ll kind of modify those heads to what we need. But that will allow us to get in there, and we actually use a camera at the same time. So I call it teleproscopic surgery on most of the people. We go in though, we don’t just throw it down there blind and not look at what we’re doing. Obviously if the blind’s backed up, we’re gonna send it down, we’re gonna send it down to when we hit a blockage.

 

Tessa Murry (15:39.474)

Mm-hmm.

 

Noah Gavic (15:49.016)

get that blockage to drain, then we’re gonna throw our camera down to make sure that we don’t get our jetter stuck, and then you’re in a pain for us to dig it back up. We’re gonna then continually clean as we watch what we’re doing to make sure that we don’t get these things stuck. Other companies just go whip it in there and call it a day, it’s stuck, I’m sorry, now we gotta dig it.

 

Tessa Murry (16:09.41)

You know, I’ve got a question for someone who knows nothing about drain cleaning. Is like 4000 psi like a piece of equipment a homeowner could go rent and use on their own? Or is that a piece of equipment that’s for professionals only? And would you recommend that homeowners do their own drain cleaning? Or have you seen too many horror stories and you would say leave it to the professionals?

 

Noah Gavic (16:32.526)

You can get a, basically a jetter in all sense is a pressure washer. Now a jetter in a sense, I use it to spray my trucks off the same way as well. It just basically provides pressured water. To do any of these specific heads that we use to clear the roots, you’re gonna need at least six gallons a minute and up to, depending on the size of the pipe, 18 to 20 gallons a minute of water. So most of those correct.

 

Reuben Saltzman (16:58.653)

What?

 

Tessa Murry (16:59.026)

That’s a lot of water.

 

Reuben Saltzman (17:01.351)

A lot of water.

 

Noah Gavic (17:03.04)

Most of those are gonna be specialized equipment. I mean, you’re spending probably 20 grand for a piece of this equipment to get set up at a minimum. So it’s not usually a homeowner special on that.

 

Tessa Murry (17:10.822)

Okay.

 

Reuben Saltzman (17:12.274)

So how?

 

Yeah, how do you get the water? Because I know that I’ve got my outside faucet and it’ll give me about 10 gallons per minute. How are you getting this much water?

 

Tessa Murry (17:15.6)

Mm-mm.

 

Tessa Murry (17:24.53)

I

 

Noah Gavic (17:26.734)

So usually on a system like said, that goes up to around 10 gallons in minutes, those ones usually can be fed by a hose, but usually you’re always gonna have a buffer tank. So you’re gonna have some kind of tank there, whether it be a 30, 60, 100 gallon tank. Mine, I have 150 gallon tank there. So I have a float on that, basically it fills it as it needs. And so that allows me to pull from that. And then obviously I’m not jetting all the time, so it’s not a constant. I’m gonna go ahead and stop, check it, camera, it’s filling it up at that period.

 

Reuben Saltzman (17:36.926)

Okay, got it.

 

Reuben Saltzman (17:45.658)

huh.

 

Reuben Saltzman (17:54.961)

Okay.

 

Noah Gavic (17:55.374)

Any of those bigger jetters as well that are gonna be doing that 20, 30 gallons a minute. Typically if you’re gonna reach into that range, you’re talking about city municipal lines. You’re gonna be dealing with anything past 20 gallons per minute. And those are 60, 80, sometimes 100 gallons a minute that they’re pushing water out to do main line clearing and they’re pushing that to do like 42 inch lines. So huge lines, huge mains. So those are used for that. But usually for residential,

 

Tessa Murry (18:06.674)

Hmm.

 

Noah Gavic (18:23.906)

To go anything up to six, even eight inch, you could probably get by with about 10 gallons, maybe 12 gallons a minute. It’d be kind of the minimum threshold of what you’re looking for for six to eight inch. Four inch, you can get by with about six. There are some people that use a four gallon a minute one with specific heads, but it just takes longer to cut, and so it’s not as fast. In reality, like I said, you gotta have to kinda get your sweet spot, and you gotta…

 

dial in your nozzles correctly so that the orifices are the correct size for the amount of hose you have and the amount of water pressure and gallons per minute you’re flowing. So you have to size everything properly so that at your head you get the correct pressure and the correct amount of cleaning power.

 

Reuben Saltzman (19:07.944)

Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (19:08.56)

This is like we’re talking to a surgeon right now. There’s a lot more to this than I realized. And I don’t think as a homeowner, I’d be comfortable trying to clean out my own drain line after listening to you, especially if I had like a 100 year old clay tile or something like that.

 

Noah Gavic (19:13.253)

Ha

 

Reuben Saltzman (19:17.502)

Yeah, no way.

 

Noah Gavic (19:22.346)

I mean, people do it, but at the end of the day, usually it’s like they do it and I’ll see a machine sitting in the corner and then after they’ve either wrecked it or they can’t do it anymore, they call me. So.

 

Reuben Saltzman (19:32.198)

Okay, yeah. So what does, what do the costs look like for these different types of cleanings?

 

Tessa Murry (19:32.699)

you

 

Noah Gavic (19:41.614)

So yeah, usually, I mean, if you’re talking one of the big shops around town for doing some kind of, a lot of people call it ultimate cleaning, chain cleaning, they’re gonna be probably 1200 bucks to two grand for somebody to go in there with a flex shaft and clean it. The ones that are using, those are, they call it their ultimate cleaning. And that’s usually where they’re bringing in a bigger flex shaft machine. The guys that are using a smaller cleaning, they’re probably in the three to $500 range.

 

to do that, but those are the ones typically that end up getting upsold to a jitter anyways. So they go in there, unless it’s a soft blockage or just toilet paper and debris or minor roots, that machine’s not gonna handle that. Usually then it’s gonna go up to a jitter and that’s what they kinda go ahead and they process and they move up to it.

 

Jetting for me, I’m usually somewhere in the range of like 1200 bucks for up to like 90 minutes of time with a camera inspection. So when we’re done, we’ll scope it, we’ll show you what it looks like, give you any options on repairing it. Some of the other shops in town are anywhere from 1800 to 2400 bucks to do the same thing that I’m doing. Those are usually the big name brands you’ll see on TV commercials, billboards, things like that. So, and usually like a regular drain machine cable.

 

Tessa Murry (20:54.94)

Shit.

 

Noah Gavic (20:59.501)

you know, the Logan, the guy might be spending 175 bucks if you find a buck, you know, a chuck in a truck all the way up to, you know, we’ll say 500. If you guys are using a camera inspection is good what he does and knows what he’s doing and is cleaning that nice and solid all the way out to the main.

 

Reuben Saltzman (21:17.616)

Okay, all right, that’s helpful, thank you. So I got a thought.

 

Tessa Murry (21:18.386)

Paying a professional $1,200, yeah, paying a professional like you $1,200 to clean out my line is well worth it. It saves me the, I guess, concern of potentially damaging my line and then needing to dig it up and replace it for 15 grand. So, seems like a wise investment.

 

Noah Gavic (21:39.47)

Yeah, the other benefit too is like I said, being us doing the cleaning, what we can do is we have to do the cleaning anyways to line the pipe. So usually what we’ll do is we’ll credit some of that cost or all the cost depending on where it’s at towards the line. So you’re not really throwing your money down the drain. You’re still using it and it just goes towards that aspect. So it helps from a sales perspective, but it also helps from the homeowner side going, I get my money back at least I’m not losing it by cleaning the line. If I go this next route, we can wrap that into the cost for you.

 

Tessa Murry (21:55.174)

Literally.

 

Reuben Saltzman (22:08.24)

Okay. And you know, something else, Eric wanted me to ask you about is a lot of the time when we do a sewer inspection and we’re, pushing our camera down there, we get halfway down the line. We don’t even know what halfway is, but we get a little ways down and it’s like, we hit a blockage. We cannot go any farther with our sewer inspection camera. We say it’s totally blocked. You got to get someone out here to do the cleaning. And then a lot of the time we get the question back. Well,

 

Tessa Murry (22:08.754)

smoke.

 

Reuben Saltzman (22:38.13)

Before the sewer cleaners come out, they want to know how long the line is, like how long is the full line? Why is this so important for you guys to know?

 

Noah Gavic (22:48.398)

A lot of sewer cleaners, specifically if you’re gonna do a drain machine, they’re gonna have a limited amount of cable on their truck. Most average is 100 feet, so that’s why code for Minnesota requires a clean out access to be installed every 100 feet. So if you have a 200 foot line, you’re gonna have one in the house, usually by about two feet from the front of the house, in the foundation there, or sorry, inside, just inside the foundation, and then another one roughly 100 feet out.

 

So every 100 feet they usually require a clean out access. That’s to allow for easier cleaning. Now a lot of times those clean out access get covered, people do remodels, replacements, they cover them up with tile, whatever happens and you can’t find it. And you guys, I mean I’ve seen plenty of camera inspections where you guys have to use a small camera, go through a floor drain because there’s no other accessible option to go ahead and get it cameraed. Which is hard because when you put a smaller camera down there you don’t see nearly as much.

 

Reuben Saltzman (23:26.632)

Yes.

 

Noah Gavic (23:45.806)

but it just comes down to access and a lot of those accesses are either forgotten, lost, covered over, we don’t need this and so that becomes an issue. the answer to that question is, know, I have 200 feet on my jetter reel that I use and so a lot of times if it’s a long reel or a long line, I’ll go ahead and clear that with my jetter versus some other method. Because trying to push something out 200 feet is a lot harder to do than to have something pull itself with water pressure.

 

Tessa Murry (23:59.73)

that they use for lot of times, and it’s a lot of real.

 

Reuben Saltzman (24:07.325)

Okay.

 

Reuben Saltzman (24:15.11)

I bet. Okay.

 

Noah Gavic (24:16.494)

So typical line in Minneapolis is gonna be about 65 feet. That’s about an average for most houses. There are houses sometimes that might have what they call a come along sewer where they don’t have a sewer out. They’re kind of like a small block maybe that’s like a side street and they don’t have a sewer on that block and so they go out and then they might connect with a couple of their neighbors and then go out to the other street that intersects with it. And so those ones can sometimes be two, 300 feet long.

 

Reuben Saltzman (24:41.789)

Okay.

 

Reuben Saltzman (24:45.288)

Sure.

 

Noah Gavic (24:45.998)

So just because a sewer line, the house to the city main looks like, house to the middle of the road where the city main usually is, might be 65 feet, doesn’t mean the sewer is actually 65 feet. That can go out, turn, go this way, that way, might hook up with this. So it’s hard to really determine how long a pipe is, especially if you can’t televise the whole service.

 

Reuben Saltzman (25:06.994)

Now, just curious, let’s say you and three other neighbors are sharing this come along pipe and it gets clogged at the end and everybody’s sewer is, everybody’s sewer is clogged at that point. I suppose the one who’s closest to it is gonna know about it first, but everybody quickly finds out, right? No.

 

Tessa Murry (25:27.644)

team.

 

Noah Gavic (25:30.926)

Everybody will probably find out, but it’s not who’s closest, it’s who’s lowest.

 

Reuben Saltzman (25:32.327)

Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (25:36.132)

Ooh. Mm-hmm.

 

Reuben Saltzman (25:36.249)

sure, sure, sure. Okay. Yeah.

 

Noah Gavic (25:37.462)

Water finds its level, so if you might be, you might be the last one, but if you have a basement and all of them are just slab on great houses, you’re the one where all the sewage is gonna go.

 

Reuben Saltzman (25:46.864)

Okay. And who’s responsible for it then? I mean, how do people split the cost of this?

 

Tessa Murry (25:47.493)

Yep.

 

Noah Gavic (25:54.924)

Well, per Minnesota code, you’re not supposed to have sewers shared. But obviously, code has changed over the years, so when these were installed, they were allowed at that point. Usually, it’s shared between the three homeowners. So obviously, the first homeowner, they own all the way up to where the connection to the second neighbor is, and that next neighbor, then now these two homeowners own up to the third connection, and then that third neighbor.

 

Reuben Saltzman (25:59.111)

Okay, yeah.

 

Noah Gavic (26:20.684)

He’s going to now be part of that group that’s going to own all the way to the city main connection or wherever it ties into a say a manhole or some kind of where it taps the city line.

 

Reuben Saltzman (26:29.392)

Okay. All right. Got it.

 

Noah Gavic (26:31.736)

So then you had to…

 

Tessa Murry (26:31.738)

What year was that changed in code? Like, would you see that in a house built in the 50s potentially, or is it even older than that?

 

Noah Gavic (26:38.894)

You don’t typically see it. I’m not sure exactly what year it was in the code changed. Typically the ones I find are gonna be Minneapolis, St. Paul, a lot of Minneapolis you’ll find it where there’s different types ones. There’s what they call shared connections where it’s you and your neighbor to your left or your right of you that may share a connection. they usually they go out the side of the house, connect and go out.

 

Tessa Murry (27:01.671)

soon.

 

Noah Gavic (27:01.89)

There’s also what they call a breach connection where they go out to the middle of the road and they share and they drop in together and they go down to the main. And usually that’s where it’s like a deeper main and they have, so they kind of split the cost usually once it drops down there. So Minneapolis, St. Paul are the most common, but there are other instances like we did one in Coon Rapids. The sewer line had a

 

Tessa Murry (27:13.394)

Thank

 

Tessa Murry (27:18.962)

Thanks

 

Tessa Murry (27:24.05)

What is?

 

Thanks.

 

Noah Gavic (27:30.894)

I don’t want to get too long in it, but long story short, we went to dig this sewer line up for this customer. He said, this is the one we’ve cleaned every year, or my dad probably allows cleaning every two years for the last 10 years. I want to have this one repaired. It’s this clean out here in the driveway. We dug it down. We’re like, yeah, this line is broken, but this isn’t your line. And it’s in his driveway. It was the house to the left of his that had burnt down.

 

And so long story short, ended up finding out through a bunch of different, actually it was a legal matter. He tried to sue us for it. This is back when I was working for my dad. Tried to sue us for it and recoup his costs for everything. And he’s like, I ripped my whole driveway out for this repair and I want this and that. So long story short, once we got down to it, we realized what happened, that we had taken his word that this was the sewer line because it should have been, it was on his property. We found out that part of

 

that lot had been sold to his father-in-law and that’s where he put the driveway over it, but there was no easement ever put in place for the utilities that were right there. And so that stuff kind of slips through and that’s when you find issues like this where they had two separate sewers, but one was on his property. So it would have expected it to be his, but it wasn’t. His line was flowing perfectly fine.

 

Tessa Murry (28:36.818)

This is it.

 

Reuben Saltzman (28:44.84)

Sure.

 

Reuben Saltzman (28:48.934)

Wild. Sure. Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (28:51.374)

Mm-mm. Wow.

 

Noah Gavic (28:52.866)

But did you want to get back to talking about the other kind of pipe or do have other questions?

 

Reuben Saltzman (28:55.004)

Yeah, yeah, we got on a total tangent and I’m not gonna apologize for it because it’s all stuff that I meant to talk about, okay, so we kind of left off talking about cast iron and clay tile.

 

Tessa Murry (28:58.13)

Yes.

 

Noah Gavic (29:07.064)

Yep, so and then the next one I’d probably talk about is gonna be cement asbestos pipe. So it’s basically a asbestos fiber mixed in with cement. And obviously you gotta be careful working around that pipe because we have asbestos. So usually anytime you’re cutting it, you’re using water to dampen the pipe to make sure we don’t get that coming in the air using a respirator to make sure that you’re not having any issue with that. And then usually trying to use a low dust, a minimal dust method to go ahead and get that opened up.

 

Reuben Saltzman (29:14.929)

Okay.

 

Noah Gavic (29:35.764)

A lot of times you’ll find a smetaspestis piper. You’ll find that in like Golden Valley. That’s pretty the most common pipe probably in Golden Valley you’ll find. And then other cities kind of built in that same, we’ll say 50s, 60s range. So smetaspestis overall is pretty good shape. The one main downside to smetaspestis is it starts to kind of deteriorate if it’s thin.

 

Reuben Saltzman (29:46.525)

No.

 

Tessa Murry (29:47.986)

Thanks

 

Noah Gavic (30:04.822)

and it’s usually thin right where it connects to any kind of hub. So every 10 feet, there’s gonna be a coupling. And then usually those couplings where you start to see the rubber gaskets pop through and a little bit of cracking happens. Also too, just like if you see water constantly sitting on cement and that cement will start to fall and start to of wreck. The same thing kind of happens where that cement asbestos will start to saturate with water if it holds in there. So if there’s a sag or a belly where it’s holding water, that will start to rot out over time in that kind of pipe as well.

 

Reuben Saltzman (30:14.834)

Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (30:20.462)

So, I’ll see you time.

 

Reuben Saltzman (30:34.376)

Okay.

 

Noah Gavic (30:34.894)

Then the next pipe, before we get talking about the more new modern pipes, we’re talking, it was the Orangeburg, and that was done during World War I, believe. No, two actually. And that was basically, they call it rot-proof pipe. If you ever see the ads for it, the old ads from back in the day. But literally, when you dig that stuff up, you can take your finger and just crack, mean, it literally is just tar paper rolled in a circle.

 

Reuben Saltzman (30:51.125)

yeah, I’ve got one on our website.

 

Tessa Murry (30:52.242)

Okay.

 

Noah Gavic (31:04.11)

And so what happens is over time, that tar paper will start to delaminate and those layers will start to pop. And so you’ll see the pipe for one usually crushed to kind of an oval shape. You’ll see the layers on the bottom where water gets underneath them to start to kind of push up and kind of blister and bubble. And usually when you’re talking with Orangeburg, it’s usually a full replacement at that point. We could go that pipe bursting method, which we talked a little bit about in the last podcast.

 

Tessa Murry (31:04.175)

Wow.

 

Tessa Murry (31:25.682)

Thank

 

Noah Gavic (31:30.99)

Lining can be done in certain circumstances depending on the city if they allow it and if the piping is not too decayed to allow for the liner to be installed. Otherwise, like I said, pipe bursting or excavation are really your only two options. Plus, they don’t make a listed coupler to be able to couple onto that pipe and so most cities won’t allow you to hook back up to it because there’s really no way to hook up to it and they don’t make a listed coupler because it’s not worth hooking back up to that pipe.

 

Reuben Saltzman (31:57.106)

Okay, and by the way, I found the ad. Isn’t this great? And reminder for our listeners, we’re doing all of these podcasts on YouTube now. Don’t know why, but we’re doing it that way. So if anybody’s watching on YouTube, they can see the ad. It says, why men who know building use and recommend Orangeburg? At least maybe they used to. They don’t anymore.

 

Tessa Murry (32:00.594)

nice.

 

Noah Gavic (32:01.41)

There you go.

 

Noah Gavic (32:21.838)

Job security, right?

 

Tessa Murry (32:22.012)

Men.

 

Reuben Saltzman (32:24.764)

Yep, yep, exactly. Fun stuff.

 

Noah Gavic (32:28.822)

Anyways, I know we wanted a lot more stuff to talk about here, so I’m gonna go over the last couple things here. ABS is another pipe too that’s used. Not very common to see ABS outside. And then PVC, which is polyvinyl chloride. That’s probably the most common pipe you’d see installed today. That comes in a couple different varieties. You might see a green pipe that’s called SDR35. There’s also a thinner, thin wall PVC, is, it’s still an SDR35, but it’s about half the thickness of.

 

Reuben Saltzman (32:33.032)

Yeah.

 

Noah Gavic (32:55.854)

of schedule 40. Schedule 40 is what’s normally put in the ground today for a repair or replacement. They also make schedule 80, but that’s kind of overkill for what we’re looking at. Sometimes you’ll find piping in the thinner wall varieties that start to squish kind of like actually Orangeburg does as well. You’ll see it actually have little dimples and things like that, because it’s set in on a rock and that will cause it to as, it’s funny how rocks actually will start to move up in the soil. So they actually can.

 

Reuben Saltzman (33:11.304)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tessa Murry (33:12.146)

I’m sorry.

 

Noah Gavic (33:21.88)

can push on a sewer pipe. I had one that was a three foot boulder that started pushing up on a sewer one time. And it either reroute around it or cut a channel in it and the homeowner wanted us to cut a channel and run the line instead of reroute around it. But said, okay, we’ll see you again in 10 years. Then if that’s the route you wanna go. But yeah, those are the basic types of pipe. And then obviously then we have alternative methods here. So HDP is another pipe that we use for pipe bursting. It’s made out of high density polyethylene.

 

Tessa Murry (33:36.594)

Geez.

 

Reuben Saltzman (33:37.437)

Hmm

 

Noah Gavic (33:48.654)

similar to what a lot of water lines are made out of nowadays as well, or gas services and gas mains are also made out of HDPE. The best way to explain to people is a one gallon milk carton jug is made out of HDPE. So it’s slightly flexible in the sense where you can squeeze it and move it, but it’s still strong and rigid. holds everything. And if you drop that milk carton jug, it’s not gonna rip open on the side. The only thing it’s gonna do is pop the top off on it.

 

So the actual material, the nice thing about HDPE is it’ll flex and move a little bit and it actually allows us to go and we can fuse that pipe together, basically take the ends, it and fuse it, basically push it together and create a new butt joint. And technically, if done correctly, it should be stronger than the actual pipe. But I’ve ran over it with a backhoe and it doesn’t break. It might deform just slightly, but it does not break. So if we’re do anything specifically for like, like we’ll do every on occasion, we’ll run,

 

Tessa Murry (34:42.16)

Hmm.

 

Noah Gavic (34:48.726)

a line for somebody out for their drain tile. So the drain tile gets pumped out and it’s gonna be in the freezing section. We’ll run that in HTTP because even if the piping expands, it won’t break. It’ll just expand and plug with that ice blockage, unlike PVC, which is more fragile, which will break if the constraints are on it. So that’s what we use for HTTP. And then the next alternative would be is lining the piping.

 

And that’s kind where you wanted to go next on that. So that would be installing a liner. Basically it’s a new sleeve that goes inside the old pipe to rehabilitate it structurally and seal it up so that no water leaks out.

 

Tessa Murry (35:27.122)

Can I ask a quick question about the HDP? Is that a material that just most builders for new construction homes are using then? Because it seems like a smart product, you know, compared to like PVC, which can crack or break much easier.

 

Noah Gavic (35:43.342)

The issue specifically, so for inside plumbing, PVC and ABS are the two most common ones. The reason why they’re most common is because they create glues that can connect different fittings together. HDPE, the only ways to do HDPE is either to do a mechanical connection, which is like a rubber boot with a band that goes around it, or to do a fuse connection. So a fuse connection basically means where you gotta melt both ends of it and stick it together.

 

They do make a socket fuse where you can actually have a coupling you can melt it on and then poke it together. It’s just not very common in here. And a lot of what we use isn’t because it’s the best solution, it’s because somebody pushed and lobbied for that to be used. so, I mean, I love unions, but they also have their downfalls because they wanna make sure that they have work. They’re gonna say, well, let’s use this specific pipe that allows us to get in there.

 

Tessa Murry (36:39.794)

I’m

 

Noah Gavic (36:40.514)

Like lining, typically don’t like to have lining done inside the building. You need to have an alternative materials letter submitted to the city and have approval to have a liner installed technically in the house. is considered, outside sewer water, inside is considered drain waste and vent. into two different categories, two different codes.

 

Reuben Saltzman (36:58.153)

Why do you need this special letter to do it inside the house?

 

Noah Gavic (37:01.72)

So each municipality allows you to have exceptions to what the code is. They can govern what that is as long as it meets the same standards as what they allow. They’ll allow that on a per case basis.

 

Reuben Saltzman (37:16.126)

Okay, all right.

 

Tessa Murry (37:17.726)

So one, I just want to zoom out. Can you give me some context for understanding? Now you mentioned like the cement asbestos being around 50s and 60s built homes and Orangeburg being World War II era. When, what’s kind of the ages that you’ll see the clay tile and the cast iron and then the PVC lines and

 

I’d also, if you could just give us average lifespan for each material too. I’m curious to hear that.

 

Noah Gavic (37:49.166)

Yeah, mean, one of the camera today, I mean, I’ve seen some clay tile and cast iron lines that are 100 years old, over 100 years old. And I’ve also seen some PVC lines that are four years old that I’ve replaced or repaired. So I can give you averages, but a lot of it comes down to the actual person that installed it, if they installed it correctly and how it was done. With that said, clay tile, usually you’re gonna find that in the late 1800s, early 1900s to mid.

 

you’ll probably find that maybe in some circumstances up to, I hate to say 60s, but probably 50s. To be perfectly honest, if you go to Chicago, they still put it in the ground. I don’t know why, but they still do it. So, exactly, I should say I don’t know why, but that is why. There actually was a…

 

Tessa Murry (38:25.393)

Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (38:30.79)

Wow. Come on.

 

Reuben Saltzman (38:31.549)

Wow.

 

unions.

 

Noah Gavic (38:43.166)

a push to try to say that you couldn’t line cast iron pipe and people that pushed to get that try to go through the code, can you guess who it was that was trying to do it? Well, it the manufacturers that, it was the manufacturers of cast iron pipe. They don’t want you fixing their cast iron pipe with a liner, they want you replacing it with cast iron pipe. So St. Paul, it just comes down to kind of the good old boys club and who’s in who’s with what.

 

Reuben Saltzman (38:51.538)

The unions!

 

Tessa Murry (38:53.606)

Glamours. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

 

Reuben Saltzman (38:56.724)

1. All right.

 

Tessa Murry (39:01.746)

Putting new. Yeah.

 

Tessa Murry (39:08.966)

Hmm.

 

Noah Gavic (39:09.24)

how things get pushed through. So I hate to say that, but that’s kind of really what comes down to is who has the most money to lobby to make sure that it actually gets approved. So anyways, going back to it, clay tile, you’re gonna find that late 1800s up to probably 50s. Usually after that, most of it’s gonna be cast iron, cement asbestos piping. You’ll find it on occasion, like I said, right around the war, you’ll find the rot-proof orangeberg piping.

 

Reuben Saltzman (39:16.606)

Okay, got it.

 

Tessa Murry (39:16.88)

Wow.

 

Noah Gavic (39:37.132)

And then cast iron usually kind of tails off around the 80s. So that’s probably, you’d find it as, you it was usually like the 1900, like early 1900s to the 80s. And then once we get to late 80s, early 90s, we start going into PVC. thin wall PVC, SDR 35 you’ll find for usually, they call that soil pipe. They still allow that to be installed, but that’s, I wouldn’t do it just because it’s a.

 

callback waiting to happen. So that is usually installed 90s up to mid probably 2005-ish time where people started using more schedule 40 once they found that thin wall just wasn’t holding up. And so thin wall like I said kind of has a limited lifespan on it just because it’s like I said similar to Orangeburg it just has a lot that doesn’t have the tensile strength to be able to handle compaction over time.

 

Tessa Murry (40:07.858)

Thank

 

Reuben Saltzman (40:21.863)

Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (40:22.588)

Cheers.

 

Noah Gavic (40:34.638)

And so you’ll find a lot of times it just gets squished and then you’ll find where roots start to intrude specifically in joints where they’ve been squished already. Let’s see, cement asbestos, cast iron, usually those average lifespan, they can last up to a hundred years. It really depends on the install and how they were installed. PVC, I’d love to say it’s designed for a hundred years, but we haven’t hit that category yet.

 

Liners are tested to meet the standard of a 50 year minimum lifespan. Their rated life is 100 years on them. Obviously I won’t be ripping them out when it gets to that age unless they come up with some special way to preserve life for longer. So that’s kind of a rough span of what those, on average like I said 60 to 100 years is really on the high side. 60 years is kind of where I’m like, eh, might want to start thinking about it.

 

Tessa Murry (41:00.806)

it

 

Reuben Saltzman (41:15.762)

You

 

Noah Gavic (41:29.91)

if it becomes an issue, especially in those older piping or the specific piping that has issues in it.

 

Reuben Saltzman (41:34.622)

Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (41:35.101)

You know, that’s interesting. said something stood out to me, like the early 90s to the 2005-ish that you’ll see this thinner PVC pipe that doesn’t hold up well. So is that something that’s, you know, someone’s buying a house that’s 90s or early 2000s? You don’t think about having to replace the sewer line, but that’s a very real possibility in the next few decades or so.

 

Noah Gavic (41:58.478)

Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen people do bad installs on it. They use a Fernco or like a rubber boot fitting and they don’t use an extra stainless steel band on them. They call it my no shear band. And what happens is that boot has flex. And so what will happen is, especially as it goes outside the foundation, usually one person does the plumbing in the house. You have another contractor that does the plumbing from the house out to wherever the city stubs it up. And then you’ll have whoever did the city main can,

 

run the city mains usually puts a stub up. So four people, sorry, three people usually touch your sewer line from the house all the way to the main and those connections are usually the biggest concern of where issues can happen. So even on a new install, if done incorrectly, you can still have issues. And so people say, well, do I need to do a camera inspection on a new house? You know, it wouldn’t be a bad idea. The chance of it happening is probably slim, but if it does happen, do you want to spend?

 

Tessa Murry (42:51.131)

Thank

 

Noah Gavic (42:56.312)

I mean, I don’t know how much it’s gonna be exactly, but 10, 15 grand and fix it. And we did one where it was under the, it was up and and over, brand new home. They actually, they hadn’t even put the home in yet. And one of the gaskets got pushed out and it was leaking groundwater into it. And so they hired us to come in and line it before they even put the house in. So it was brand new.

 

Tessa Murry (43:15.246)

And they were going to band-aid it. They were going to line it.

 

Noah Gavic (43:17.41)

They were gonna line it, which at the end of the day, if you can seal it up, it’s not technically a bandaid at that point, but to dig it back up, it was like 25 feet deep. So it would have been a hefty bill to go ahead and go that route. So if done correctly, lining would seal that up. It’s just you have to do it correctly and to make sure you use the right liner, the right epoxy, make sure it’s set correctly.

 

Tessa Murry (43:23.503)

Okay.

 

Reuben Saltzman (43:26.407)

Oof.

 

Tessa Murry (43:26.555)

Okay.

 

Wow. Wow.

 

Reuben Saltzman (43:30.28)

Yeah.

 

Tessa Murry (43:41.187)

You know, so you specialize, sorry Ruben, one last question. Do you have any experience knowing like is this all these materials that we’re talking about today? Do we see these everywhere else in the United States? I mean, I know you specialize in Minnesota, the Midwest region, but would you say that all these different materials kind of apply to everywhere else or is it very geographically specific?

 

Noah Gavic (44:05.578)

There are geographic specific materials in some sense, but majority of it is more time specific. So when that development was built, what the most common supplied material, a lot of times what’s the minimum piping type of material that cost the least can be installed at. That’s what it comes down to the dollar and cents. You know, this clay tile the cheapest at that point, And clay tiles usually install.

 

Tessa Murry (44:24.727)

huh, okay.

 

Reuben Saltzman (44:25.139)

Sure.

 

Noah Gavic (44:33.13)

Is cast ironing gonna be the cheapest? unless the code requires a higher level of pipe, people are gonna put in what the code requires. And so that’s typically what is spec’d unless you decide I want a better sewer line than what’s spec’d.

 

Reuben Saltzman (44:48.796)

Okay, got it. And I had a question about installing these liners. I know that, you know, this is the method you use if you’re not gonna dig anything up, but at some point you gotta dig something. I mean, you gotta figure out where you’re gonna start it, where you end it. And what does that look like? I mean, how do you access the pipe?

 

Noah Gavic (45:10.85)

Yeah, so I mean every house should have some kind of clean out access. So on a house usually you’re have a vertical pipe going up through the roof and that pipe is a vent. That basically allows air to come into the system so the water can drain properly. So kind of like if you take a two liter bottle of Pepsi, you pour it upside down, it’ll glug, glug, glug, glug, glug, but you pop a hole on the top of that and it drains great out. That vent acts the same way. It allows air to enter the system. So a lot of times you’ll find a clean out access and wherever that steel pipe, usually it’s cast iron,

 

comes down through the ceiling, down to the floor. If it’s in a newer build, a lot of times it’s behind a wall. A lot of times that stack is usually behind a toilet. So if you’re looking, a lot of toilets or lot of bathrooms are stacked on top of each other in houses. If you notice that, and they’re built that way because the stack is usually bent or runs vertically, usually behind them in that wall or close to that area. So a lot of times if we’re looking at it, you’ll try to find a clean out access in that area.

 

Tessa Murry (45:52.506)

Bless her with it.

 

Tessa Murry (46:02.396)

Mm-hmm.

 

Noah Gavic (46:09.122)

The other area that you’ll typically find a clean out access is gonna be up at the front of the house, usually right about within two feet of the front wall. And a lot of times it’s in the same area as the water meter where the water comes up. Because usually the contractor doing the water is also doing the sewer. And so they run them in a similar trench. And so they’re put together. And so that’s usually the best two places to look for it. Obviously if those two are not available, then the next option would be to find a smaller access, say,

 

Tessa Murry (46:14.907)

within two feet of the floor.

 

you know, it’s not like when your water comes up. It’s usually the… too much. It’s It’s your… It’s not the environment. It’s the image.

 

Noah Gavic (46:36.822)

a laundry tub where you can run it down a two inch line or a floor drain access. Those are not ideal to camera from, but we can do that. Usually at that point, we’ll run a small camera through there, locate and find where that clean out was covered over, whether it’s tile, carpets, laminate, flooring, whatever, and figure out the best solution of can we pull this carpet back quick and just roll it back so we can get access to that clean out? Or do we have to remove some flooring or are we gonna dig outside to get access down to the pipe?

 

with an excavator and then line the pipe in that way.

 

Reuben Saltzman (47:09.224)

So you can just have that one access, the clean out or whatever it is inside the house, and you can do the whole lining process from right there most of the time. Is that what I’m hearing? Okay.

 

Tessa Murry (47:18.386)

Hmm.

 

Noah Gavic (47:20.462)

So obviously the closer to the proximity of where we’re working is the best. There are methods where we can do, we can start the liner downstream of where we’re actually working. And we can sometimes shoot through those clean-on axes. Sometimes we’ll have to actually break open the floor and get down to it a little bit closer. It really depends on the amount of bends and turns and how we’re able to navigate as long as the liner will roll through that spot.

 

Tessa Murry (47:23.611)

Thank

 

Noah Gavic (47:45.666)

Now that liner obviously goes in soft and then it hardens in place so it’ll kind of follow whatever the existing hose pipe is. But if there’s lots of turns, that creates more friction. More friction makes it harder for it to be installed, which means more air pressure has to be applied. More air pressure means that it goes around the bends harder and it actually stretches longer and we can’t be as accurate on our measurements where we want to land at the end.

 

Reuben Saltzman (48:07.954)

Gotcha Gotcha, and how do you decide whether you’re gonna have to dig or you can line it? What makes that determination?

 

Noah Gavic (48:17.518)

Yeah, so looking at a pipe, we’re gonna look at it and we’re gonna make sure that it’s gonna meet the ASTM standard. So I can’t remember exactly. I think it’s F21675 or something like that. There’s a specific.

 

Reuben Saltzman (48:26.716)

Yeah, careful. I’m going to call you out if you get it wrong,

 

Noah Gavic (48:30.432)

I know, there’s a specific standard for lining. Right now, lining’s kind of like the wild, wild west. Everybody’s kind of throwing things in. Like today, I came to a job and I feel really bad for the homeowner, but they’re looking to buy the house. And some contractor had installed a four inch liner, and this was in Minneapolis, all the way out to the city main. Well, in Minneapolis, most houses go four inch to six inch. And so a liner actually needs to…

 

to follow the existing material profile. So if it’s a six inch pipe, it should go to six inch line. And that’s gonna seal that up. And so they installed this four inch liner all the way out to within probably six inches of the main. But the problem is now you’re gonna have an annular space that’s gonna be a gap between the existing clay tile and that liner material. And what happens is that moist environment that’s created in the sewer system causes water to kind of be in that area and those roots are gonna follow it.

 

Reuben Saltzman (49:12.904)

Yep.

 

Noah Gavic (49:22.444)

work their way down until they get down around that liner and then come in and just soak off of that. And then eventually people are gonna try cleaning it and when they clean it, they’re gonna rip off a section of that liner and then it’s gonna wreck. And the only way to clean it, because there’s not a listed coupler for liners, because liners actually, they can be varying diameters, you have to hook onto the existing host pipe that’s lined. So if they line that all four inch and six inch pipe, I have to get all the way back to where the liner is

 

Reuben Saltzman (49:27.838)

Hmm.

 

Tessa Murry (49:34.066)

you

 

Noah Gavic (49:51.672)

basically fits uniform in that pipe, which is all the way back up at the house and either excavate, repair it all and tackle it that way. So the person that did that did a really bad job and I’m pretty sure I know who did it, but I’m not gonna say here, but it’s it’s doing a disservice by doing it incorrectly. And that’s why they said these ASDM standards are in place so that people do it correctly, but you know.

 

Reuben Saltzman (49:55.997)

Ugh.

 

Tessa Murry (50:04.114)

Thank

 

Reuben Saltzman (50:08.306)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Noah Gavic (50:21.218)

Because it’s, we’ll say, newer here, not as many people did it for so long. I mean, I’ve been doing it for 17 years. Liners are not as, like, people don’t identify that there should be a four by six change, and it should go from four inch pipe to six inch. And so they pass it and say, okay, you’re good to go. When reality now, they’re just passing the buck to the next person that’s gonna have to spend a lot more to fix it because they did it incorrectly.

 

Tessa Murry (50:44.752)

Well, and just think about the next sewer cleaner who comes in and they don’t know that and they just clean the pipe like they should and then they end up destroying it and then they’re the ones probably held liable for ruining the pipe. It’s a trap.

 

Noah Gavic (50:58.414)

Yeah, I mean at the end of the day, it is not a bad, it’s a bad cycle that creates people just doing it incorrectly. So Ruben, did you wanna talk more about lining specifically though, kind of the process of that?

 

Tessa Murry (51:04.622)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Reuben Saltzman (51:11.442)

Yeah, well, we I think we talked about it on the last one. I mean, what I remember, correct me if I’m wrong, is basically you send this big sock down there and then you stick basically a balloon in there and you inflate it. And then you got this epoxy that fills it all in and it hardens in place. Is that is that the gist of it or what am I missing?

 

Noah Gavic (51:34.742)

Yeah, that’s the gist of it. I mean, there’s different types of lining. There’s going to be pull in place. So pull in place is where the actual

 

It’s basically, think of it like a balloon, a bladder that is placed inside the liner material and it’s either pushed in with a push rod or you run a line through the sewer line to the manhole and you pull it into place. That piping, that’s more for like if you’re gonna do patching specifically, if there’s one spot that needs to be resolved. I there’s a couple I came across to the day where it was four inch PVC going to six inch PVC and all the PVC was in good shape but where they connected the two together, they used a rubber boot.

 

Tessa Murry (51:55.303)

All right.

 

Noah Gavic (52:13.89)

and they didn’t make sure it was clean so they get a good seal on it and then wrists were coming into that line. That’s where installing a smaller patch would be beneficial instead of lining the whole pipe. That’s where you’re do a push in place there. Now inversion, that’s the opposite method where instead of having the epoxy on the outside of it, it’s gonna start with the epoxy poured inside the sock and inversion is where it actually flips inside out.

 

and shoots itself down like taking your sock off of the night where it inverts. And so it shoots itself through itself. So that’s inversion versus a pull in place method. So those are the two main concepts for lining. They fall in the same category, a cure in place pipe, a CIPP. Now the different types of liners, there’s also scrim liner. Scrim liner is basically meant to only follow a specific diameter profile. So we buy scrim liners in the sense that, you know,

 

we might say, okay, I want 10 feet of four inch and then it’ll bell out over a three foot period to go to six inch and then I want 80 feet of that. And so we buy liners precisely for the lines that we’re doing and we just cut off the excess we don’t need. The reason we like that is because you get a consistent three millimeter finish or three mil finish on that liner. So you get an as consistent line throughout the, the people that use what’s called a flex liner. So a lot of the newer companies that are using hammerhead,

 

or some of the other, even some of the PRT, pipeline renewal technologies, permaliner, some of those ones that use flux liners, the problem with that, if they’re not using a thick enough liner, is as they go down the line, if they’re using like three mil liner and it’s going down to the four inch, as it flexes out, it’s going to thin. I hate to call it, but it’s kind of like a,

 

Tessa Murry (53:49.372)

So far.

 

Noah Gavic (54:06.002)

we’ll almost go into pregnancy when a woman dilates and it thins out. It’s kind of the same way, that liner material thins out so it’s not nearly as thick. And so you’re ending up with a nice semi-thick liner in the PVC pipe or the cast iron or whatever piping is the four inch. But as you get to that clay tile or six inch pipe, you’re gonna typically have a really thinned out liner. And I’ve got to those where literally you can take it and you can peel it off, pull it apart, you can step on it and break it.

 

Reuben Saltzman (54:09.596)

Yep, tracking.

 

Noah Gavic (54:35.446)

And that’s the part where it’s kind of the wild wild west where people are, this is what meets the standard, but nobody’s really checking it. Nobody’s asking for submittals of liners that actually test the tensile strength on them. Cities now are starting to think about that and they say, well, we might request like St. Paul, we might request a sample of your liner. They’ve asked me that for the last three years. They haven’t ever asked me for a, they haven’t ever asked me for a sample though.

 

Tessa Murry (54:46.866)

Thanks.

 

Reuben Saltzman (54:58.641)

Okay.

 

Okay.

 

Noah Gavic (55:03.246)

So while they say they might ask for a sample, they don’t actually. And that requires third party testing as well to test those. So people can put in kind of anything and if they don’t know what the materials is put in there, that’s the problem is sometimes they can end up with a product that’s maybe subpar and it’s not what they’re looking for.

 

Reuben Saltzman (55:22.44)

Man, there’s a lot that goes into this.

 

Noah Gavic (55:25.26)

So, and then there’s also different types of curing methods too. So there’s different types of curing methods, there’s different types of composites. So when I say composites, I’m talking about we use an epoxy based resin, it has the least shrinkage factor of any of them. There’s vinyl esters, polyesters, there’s gonna be hybrid, there maculite, epoxy resins, there is silicate resins, there’s a bunch of different resins that are used for different types of it and.

 

Tessa Murry (55:25.724)

so much.

 

Noah Gavic (55:53.774)

a lot of the newer UV-based initiated resins. So when I say UV, they actually have a, send the liner down, they send the bladder down, which is clear, and then they send a light that has basically, it’s like a bulb with a camera on it. And that goes all the way down to the end of where the liner is, and that lights up. What happens is that UV light will penetrate into the resin, and there’s an initiator that’s built into that resin that when it hits that light, that certain nanometer of light,

 

it’ll actually cause that resin to initiate and go from a liquid to a solid and cross-link and create those bonds and harden in place. And so they basically will pull that back. So there’s a motor on there that basically pulls that reel back slowly at a certain feet per minute and will cure out that liner specifically on that. Then the other methods typically are more tried and true methods are going to be is basically putting that bag down there and using either hot water. So they put a hot water loop through there and it’s basically heat that hot water up.

 

Reuben Saltzman (56:35.539)

Sure.

 

Noah Gavic (56:50.894)

to the point where they get it up to 140 degrees at a minimum, usually 160, till they get to that resin, that epoxy, to a flash point where it hardens and creates across a solid pipe. The method we use is steam. We’ve just found it to be the reliable but also faster method. And basically we just have to get that epoxy up to a certain temperature to cause it to kick from a liquid to a solid. So each resin can have a different initiator.

 

There’s also what they call an ambient cure or air cure. So resin itself, depending on how much accelerant is added to it, that is the initiator in there. you know, for light cure ones, there’s a light cure initiator. For steam, usually there’s less accelerant and they’re more hardener in that epoxy resin. And so you use that steam to get that to initiate. For an ambient, where you’re just gonna go ahead and put that balloon down and then wait.

 

Usually those are ones where people are waiting, say, anywhere from six hours to 24 hours with the balloon in, where you don’t have the uses of your sewer. Those ones are gonna be called ambient cure, and those ones have a more of an initiator in there. So typically what’ll happen is, kind of like super glue, where you will, you’ll glue a piece, you’ll hold it for about five seconds, then it’ll stay. But you’re not supposed to actually use it or function it for 24 hours, you’re supposed to let it cure.

 

Tessa Murry (57:48.716)

Thanks for watching.

 

Reuben Saltzman (58:10.568)

Yeah.

 

Noah Gavic (58:11.234)

That’s kind of what ambient is, is you can put that down, you can put the bladder down, you can let that sit for about six hours. That’ll allow that liner to basically get firm but not hard yet. And then you can pull the bladder back out and it’ll finish curing over a period of time. The concern on that though is if you have groundwater or other things pushing in inwardly and trying to access the piping, that can cause that or inhibit that epoxy from curing because it cools it down and it can actually wash out the resin.

 

Tessa Murry (58:25.266)

and I’ll see you next time.

 

Reuben Saltzman (58:40.286)

Noah Gavic (58:40.64)

and it can cause fins where it’ll actually bring water in and cause the pipe to kind of compress and put a fin in that line. so on certain circumstances where that is sometimes, you know, leaving it on a higher pressure for a longer 24 hour period are beneficial or using a UV based initiated resin or a silicate resin that are not as of a concern with water. They can cure with the presence of water in there.

 

So it’s kind of a different, you have to kind of look at it and you gotta have different things in your tool bag to be able to pull out and say, we’re gonna use this one here, we’re gonna use this one here, we’re gonna use this method here. And that’s something that just comes with years of experience, so.

 

Reuben Saltzman (59:22.642)

Yeah, I bet. I mean, I could see someone first getting into this. It’s like you’re going to be a one trick pony. This is the stuff I invested in. This is what I got. And this is what you need. I could see how there was.

 

Noah Gavic (59:34.552)

So that’s the thing. I mean, like I said, there’s certain, eventually we’ll probably get into a more UV based system. I bought a UV based patch system from Permaliner that uses a vinyl ester resin. And that’s, can’t use it in conjunction with a steam. You actually have to put your liner in, steam it, and then put this patch in afterwards. If you’re gonna use it.

 

And so there’s certain things you have to be careful of to make sure that you don’t use one with the other or this, you can use this with that. So you really have to be cognizant about what you’re doing and to make sure that you’re not setting the next guy up for failure if there is another guy coming behind you. And that’s a lot of what is doing service is to make sure that you’re doing it correctly.

 

Tessa Murry (01:00:19.154)

services to make sure that you’re… You know, my takeaway from this, Noah, is okay, you are a wealth of knowledge, but there are so many things to know and to learn about treating a sewer line, the different options, how to repair it, how to replace it, what to use, how to do it, that I mean, if you’re a homeowner and you’ve got an issue with the sewer line and you know, you’re going to be spending five, 10, 15, 20 grand,

 

you need to know who you’re hiring and you need to hire someone like you because there’s so many people out there that aren’t aware of those things and either they may be and they’re just trying to make a profit or they have no clue and they’re just naive to all these things and they’re actually doing harm instead. So I think it’s just enlightening to me that there’s just so much to this and you really need to be cautious when you’re a homeowner with who you’re hiring.

 

Reuben Saltzman (01:00:49.756)

Yes.

 

Reuben Saltzman (01:01:13.832)

Yeah.

 

Noah Gavic (01:01:14.702)

Well, and there’s also certain companies too that are offering lifetime warranties on things. And it’s like, they’re offering it beyond the manufacturer’s warranty. Most manufacturers warranty are about a 10 year warranty on it. And they’re offering 50, 100 year or lifetime warranties on things. And the concern is obviously they don’t care. They’re gonna either be sold to another private equity group or they’re gonna be gone by that time that warranty becomes needed. And so I just fear for the people, not fear for them, but I feel bad for the people that

 

are get taken by companies or fly by night companies that are not gonna be around. And they do this work and then they’re gone the next day and it’s like, well, there’s no repercussion at all. And the next homeowner is left pulling the bag and that costs.

 

Reuben Saltzman (01:01:58.994)

Yeah, yeah.

 

Tessa Murry (01:02:00.55)

This is a situation where a 50-year warranty may not be a good thing.

 

Noah Gavic (01:02:05.036)

And like I said, comes down to, like I said, the manufacturers, all of them, from everyone I’ve talked to, they’re all out of tenure, but people will say, this is a manufacturer 50-year warranty. And I’m sitting there looking at them going, I have the same reps you have, I know exactly what they offer for it, and you’re straight out flat lying to these people that it’s a manufacturer warranty. That’s kind of where I’m like, it’s not worth it. You gotta be honest with people, you gotta make sure they’re taken care of, and you know.

 

If I’m gonna line through a pipe that maybe has a sag or a belly in that pipe, I’m gonna let them know that liner’s not gonna take that out. It will make it smoother, it’ll make it flow through more like a slip and slide. But that’s all about educating the customer to make sure they make the best decision. You might give them another option to dig up that and re-pipe it to be the correct pitch. But they might say, I don’t have the funds for it, I don’t wanna do it. They’re gonna go through the pros and cons of it. And we always explain to the customer the pros and cons so they can make the right decision.

 

Like I said, a lot of it comes down to whether it’s finances or it’s not that bad, I want a chance at, we’ll work with you on it as long as it’s allowed by plumbing code, as long as we’re not doing a bad repair, and as long as, like I said, we feel like we can put our name behind it.

 

Reuben Saltzman (01:03:17.982)

Sure, Well, Noah, I can’t thank you enough for all of your time. I know we went over on what I said this is gonna be, but we had so many questions and I feel like I still got more, but no, I will not ask you for more of time. I really appreciate it. And we will have a link to your company in the show notes to Brothers Underground. And for anybody just listening, if they wanna get ahold of you, how do they find you, Noah?

 

Tessa Murry (01:03:19.154)

you

 

Noah Gavic (01:03:42.67)

They can give us a go to our website. if they that’s probably the easiest method. So if you have already a video inspection done by structure tech or spectrum services or any other company per se, you can actually submit it on a form we have online. That actually is the easiest method and the fastest route to be able to get everything taken care of that actually submits everything through us goes right into our system. We can go ahead and send you.

 

estimate right back out typically as long as we have a video of the line. And like I said, even too, if the line needs to be dug up, we can usually get you an approximate idea of what that cost is. So if you’re in a negotiation standpoint and you have no time to have somebody come back out physically, know, vet where that is, as long as they got all the way to the city main, it makes it a lot easier. We can work our way back from where the city main is to figure out roughly where it is and build you a price profile that’ll at least get you to a negotiation standpoint.

 

and then we can say let’s take a look at it once that’s completed and go that route. So online would be the best route. Also, our phone number’s on there. You can always give us a call. It’d be me, Caleb, or Jesse, so you’re gonna be reaching owner, not just some call taker that doesn’t know what they’re talking about. So that’s the benefit is we actually know what we’re talking about. We’ve done it for so long. So you’re actually gonna get an informed decision versus just somebody says I can set an appointment up for you and have a sales guy come out. So.

 

Reuben Saltzman (01:05:05.234)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Noah Gavic (01:05:07.64)

Those are the two best methods there. But it’s gonna be bros, and that’s B-R-O-S, and then underground.com. If you type in brothers underground too, we have that profile, so it’ll just redirect. So either one will get to us. But that’s the best route to get service there.

 

Tessa Murry (01:05:09.074)

That’s your website, Noah.

 

Tessa Murry (01:05:23.004)

Thank

 

Reuben Saltzman (01:05:26.814)

Okay, it’s no wonder people love working with you. You make this sound very easy and very efficient.

 

Tessa Murry (01:05:27.356)

Thank you.

 

Tessa Murry (01:05:32.978)

Thank

 

Noah Gavic (01:05:34.606)

I went to a guy’s house today and I was like, I was like, here, this is what we’re do. This is this, this. He goes, yeah, you’re a lot different than the last guy that came out four years ago. He goes, I’m not gonna say names, but he wasn’t quite a hero. And I said, said, you don’t need a hero when you have an expert. So I came out, I gave him a price. We walked the laditas. I said, you know what, if you need to other estimates, fine.

 

He goes, I don’t think I’m gonna get another estimate. I’m just gonna talk with a wife. We’re just gonna go with you guys. You know what you’re talking about. You got it taken care of. And it’s, you know, that’s where a lot of people go with us is because they feel comfortable. Because we explain it to them. A lot of salespeople don’t explain it. They just say, this is what you need. This is what it’s gonna cost. We actually go through the details with the customer, spend the time with them and explain why we’re doing what we’re doing. And that makes a difference.

 

Tessa Murry (01:06:09.202)

Nice.

 

Tessa Murry (01:06:22.098)

Thank

 

Reuben Saltzman (01:06:28.328)

So good, so good. Well, Noah, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate all your time and expertise. Great having you on. And I’m sure we’ll do a follow-up at some point, but this is all I can ask of you for right now. So really appreciate it. Tessa, great to see you. And Tessa, if people want to get a hold of you, how do they reach you, Tessa?

 

Tessa Murry (01:06:29.042)

Awesome.

 

Noah Gavic (01:06:40.782)

Ha

 

Tessa Murry (01:06:41.49)

Yeah.

 

Noah Gavic (01:06:44.77)

Sounds good.

 

Tessa Murry (01:06:46.651)

Good to see you.

 

Tessa Murry (01:06:51.084)

thank you. You can reach me and go to my website. It’s yourhousecoach.com and all my contact information is on there.

 

Reuben Saltzman (01:06:58.482)

Perfect. All right. And for the listeners, if you got questions for us, you can reach us by emailing us at podcast at structuretech.com and we will catch you next time. Take care.