In this conversation, Reuben Saltzman and Tessa Murry discuss the importance of proper HVAC sizing and the upcoming refrigerant changes that will affect the industry. They are joined by Robin Johnson from High Road Heating and Air, who shares insights on the significance of manual J calculations for HVAC systems, the transition to new refrigerants due to environmental concerns, and the challenges of older HVAC systems. The discussion also touches on advancements in HVAC efficiency and the future of heating and cooling technology. In this conversation, Robin Johnson discusses the evolving landscape of home heating systems, focusing on the transition from traditional gas furnaces to high-efficiency options and heat pumps. She highlights the importance of understanding upcoming regulations, the rising costs of new systems, and the necessity of regular maintenance to ensure longevity. Additionally, Robin emphasizes the growing role of women in the HVAC industry and the need for more female representation in technical roles.
Takeaways
Proper HVAC sizing is crucial for efficiency and comfort.
Manual J calculations ensure the right equipment size for homes.
Upcoming refrigerant changes aim to reduce environmental impact.
New refrigerants will be less forgiving and more costly to repair.
The HVAC industry is moving towards higher efficiency standards.
Older systems may face challenges in finding replacement parts.
The transition to new refrigerants will happen gradually.
Homeowners should be aware of the implications of refrigerant changes.
Advancements in technology are leading to shorter lifespans for appliances.
Legislation may affect rebates for high-efficiency HVAC systems. Electric heating requires backup sources for efficiency.
High-efficiency furnaces are becoming mandatory.
Future mandates may eliminate low-efficiency options.
Heat pumps are gaining popularity for home heating.
Costs for new heating systems are significantly increasing.
Regular maintenance is crucial for system longevity.
Investing in efficient systems can save money long-term.
Women are increasingly entering the HVAC industry.
The HVAC industry is constantly evolving with new technologies.
Educating homeowners on costs and options is essential.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
03:11 The Importance of Proper HVAC Sizing
05:59 Upcoming Changes in HVAC Refrigerants
09:10 Understanding Refrigerant Changes and Their Impact
12:00 Future of Refrigerants and Environmental Considerations
14:57 Challenges with Older HVAC Systems
17:48 Advancements in HVAC Efficiency
22:10 The Future of Home Heating Systems
23:00 Transitioning to High-Efficiency Furnaces
25:04 Navigating Mandates and Regulations
28:04 The Rise of Heat Pumps
30:07 Cost Implications of New Systems
33:21 Maintenance and Longevity of Heating Systems
36:15 Investing in Heating Solutions
40:08 Women in the HVAC Industry
TRANSCRIPTION
The following is a transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be slightly incomplete or contain minor inaccuracies due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Reuben Saltzman: Welcome to my house. Welcome to the Structure Talk podcast, a production of Structure Tech Home Inspections. My name is Reuben Saltzman. I’m your host alongside building science geek Tessa Murry. We help home inspectors up their game through education, and we help homeowners to be better stewards of their houses. We’ve been keeping it real on this podcast since 2019, and we are also the number one home inspection podcast in the world, according to my mom. Welcome back, Tessa. Great to see you. How are you doing today?
Tessa Murry: Hey, good to see you too, Reuben. It’s good to be back. I’m battling my, I don’t know, I feel like 12th cold of the year so far. It’s just, it is nonstop with having my 3-year-old nephew who I see a lot. He started going to pre-K, so it is a, and he was born in 2021. He’s a COVID baby, so he was never exposed to any germs before. [laughter] Now it’s constant viruses. So anyways, I’m doing okay, but yeah, I felt better. How about you? How are you doing?
RS: I got no complaints. I’m good, feeling good, healthy.
TM: Wonderful.
RS: I have no physical injuries at the moment, which is unusual, and it feels great.
TM: I was gonna say, usually I’ve got a cold and you’ve injured yourself doing some workout or extreme…
RS: Something crazy.
TM: Competition.
RS: Yeah, but nothing right now, feeling great.
TM: So I’m excited today, Reuben. We’ve got a special guest on. Who do we have on today?
RS: Yes. Today we’ve got Robin Johnson with High Road Heating & Air. Robin, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?
Robin Johnson: Great, thank you. I’m happy to be here. Actually, I’m really excited to be here.
RS: Well, Robin and I have known each other for a long time. I mean, it probably goes back, I don’t know, 10, 15 years, something like that. We did the radio show with All Around for probably about a decade together. We ended up being guests on the show simultaneously many times. I know I would drive Robin a little crazy every now and then in the early days. She’s nodding her head furiously.
[laughter]
TM: I need to hear these stories.
RS: We would have opposing viewpoints on a few different things, mostly around humidifiers. We won’t get into that on the show. But…
TM: Just like how we don’t discuss politics or religion in public places or even at family events, we do not discuss humidifiers here on this podcast with Reuben.
RS: That’s right. That’s right. But no, High Road is awesome. We gave their name out for a long time. We’ve got a fair list of great HVAC contractors on our website that we give out. But I will say, when I had to replace my furnace at the house I’m currently in, this was a couple years ago, I ended up, I said, I wanna get a full experience from all these contractors. So I had all of them give me bids. I had maybe seven or eight people come out. The person at Costco was giving out cards like, hey, Costco will replace your furnace and AC. All right, have you guys come out. Anybody who wanted to give me a bid. I got a lot of bids. And most of the people were like, all right, what size furnace you got now? You got that? How’s it work? Is it good? All right, then that’s what we’ll do. That was their calculation, their Manual J Calculation on what size furnace they should put in for me. And…
TM: Shockingly simple and inaccurate. [laughter]
RS: Shockingly simple. Although at the same time, it wasn’t totally shocking. I kind of expected that. But then I didn’t set anybody up. I just said, I need a new furnace. What can you do for me? I need a new AC too. When I called High Road, Robin herself came out. And by the way, I didn’t really announce your title, Robin. You’re the owner of High Road Heating & Air, correct? We got a female-owned company. Woo. Let’s go.
RJ: Yay. Hoo-hoo.
RS: Yes. So Robin herself came out. She went throughout my entire house and she measured square footage and cubic footage, ceiling height, all that. She measured the area of all my windows to calculate the amount of glass that I had and how much north facing and all that. She did a true Manual J Calculation to figure out what size furnace and AC I need to have in my house. Anything else you wanna say about that, Robin? Am I missing any details?
RJ: No. If you don’t do that, you don’t know the size of equipment you need based on efficiencies we offer nowadays. It’s a must deal. And then I can give a comfort guarantee because I’ve done that, ’cause I know I’ve sized the equipment to meet your house, to be comfortable and efficient at the same time.
RS: Yes.
TM: I’m just curious, Robin, how many houses do you think have improperly sized HVAC systems that your company goes out to, they do those calculations and then they put in a different sized unit? Does that happen a lot?
RJ: It’s different now. Like in Reuben’s house, the way they figured out how to size the equipment was so different years ago. But a lot of people are getting the wrong size equipment because my competitors are not doing the Manual J Calculations. It takes time. But that’s the only way that I know that we can offer the guarantees that we have, is that we size it right. Plus, I’m selling you and installing a piece of equipment that has a certain efficiency. We take pride in our installation that we know that when we’re done, you’re getting that efficiency. And the only way we can do that is if we’ve also sized the equipment correctly.
RS: Excellent.
TM: Wow, that’s very impressive.
RS: Yep. So I definitely appreciated that. And their price was very competitive. I even said, hey, it’s gonna be another 500 bucks where you guys have to have an electrician come in and connect these wires, 500 bucks to do that. Basically it’s about as tough as installing a light switch. I said, what if I were to just do that? Because as the owner occupant, I am allowed to do work on my own house. I can do the electrical work. How about you let me do that? And she said, yeah, sure, why not? I’ll knock 500 bucks off the price if you want us to just leave the electrical and you do it. So that was extremely accommodating and it was a piece of cake for me to connect the wires. Saved another 500 bucks on the whole job like that. So I really appreciate the flexibility and they’re the company I ended up using for it and they did a bang up job.
RJ: And keep in mind, Reuben, with your city, we could do that. Some cities, we are not allowed to do that. When we pull the building permit to put in the mechanical equipment, that city requires a licensed electrician to do that wire hookup. And so we’re not electricians yet at High Road. So we team up with a subcontractor that comes and does it for us. So it depends on your city, your city we could do that. Most cities we can’t. Some we can.
RS: Oh, wow. Okay. All right. Well, good on the city of Maple Grove. That’s fantastic. And boo to all the cities who don’t let homeowners do that. Okay. All right.
RJ: It can be complicated on the building permit side, but we deal with all of that so you don’t have to worry about it.
RS: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s awesome. So that’s just a little background on Robin and how I know her and her company, High Road Heating & Air. And so today what I wanted to get Robin on the show to talk about is this big change that I’ve heard is coming at the beginning of the year. Is that correct, Robin? And it has to do…
RJ: Yes. It started last year in the South, so Florida, Arizona, Texas, they all have this new program. It starts for us January 1, 2025.
RS: Okay. Got it.
RJ: It is this new CR ratings on equipment and new refrigerants.
RS: Okay. New CR ratings on the air conditioners and the equipment. So it basically means they need to be more energy efficient. And with that also is gonna come a change in refrigerant. Is that correct?
RJ: That is correct.
RS: Okay. Okay.
RJ: That’s the scary part, but we’ve been through this before. In 2010, R22 refrigerant has been on the market for several years. And in 2010, manufacturers had to stop making manufacturing equipment that used R22 refrigerant. We moved to R410, which is the current refrigerant on the market today. So now they’re replacing the R410 with either R454 or R32. So as of January 1, 2025, all the manufacturers that make all the heating and cooling equipment can no longer make it for R410 refrigerant. They have to make it for one of the other two. And each manufacturer has picked which of the two that they’re going to utilize.
RS: Okay. All right. In the past, when we had this big switch from R22 to R410A, you know that you can’t mix and match those refrigerants, if it’s designed for one that’s all you can put in there. But what we saw was that R22, they stopped producing it too. So we ended up kind of having, it became a scarce commodity and all of a sudden people are paying more and more. Every time you need to have one of those systems serviced, people would have to pay through the nose to the point where if your system was leaking refrigerant, just low on refrigerant, it almost became cost prohibitive to service the equipment. You wouldn’t add refrigerant anymore, it just made more sense to simply replace it.
RJ: Correct.
RS: Is that gonna happen with R410A?
RJ: Yes, but keep in mind it’s 2024 and this started in 2010. We still have R22 available. We offer it in limited quantities to a customer. We don’t give them more than 2 pounds, but by next year it’s gonna be gone. ‘Cause I can no longer get it. My suppliers that I work with, and I have many, they no longer carry it anymore. So I bought some to have on hand for those customers that have a decent unit that’s still working and maybe needs a couple of ounces ’cause we did a repair and we lost a little bit of refrigerant. So the same thing is going to happen with R410, but it’s gonna be a shorter timeframe, when things are going to change over. Keep in mind equipment lasts, new equipment lasts for the manufacturers 15 to 20 years with regular maintenance. So if you buy an R410A furnace or air conditioner today, or a heat pump, we still got a while before we’re gonna be totally out of R410A, ’cause they may, let’s say one year they decide we no longer can manufacture it, but they may beef up their amount that they have in the warehouse because of all the equipment out there so we can continue to service the equipment. So, but I don’t know that we’re gonna have a 14-year gap between when we stop manufacturing it to when it’s absolutely no longer available. That’s to be seen in the future. There’s rumors about when it’s gonna stop or that it’ll be shorter, but we just don’t know.
RS: Okay. All right. Got it. And what’s the reason for the change in refrigerant? What’s the difference between R410A and the new stuff?
RJ: Global warming potential, or GWP. You’ll hear a lot about GWP, which stands for global warming potential. The new refrigerants affect what’s going on in our environment less, and less than R410. So R22 hurt the ozone so they brought in R410A. So now they want to be better and they’ve discovered R32 or R54. So that’s what we’re moving to so that we can protect our environment.
RS: Okay.
TM: And Robin, it’s, maybe since you’ve been in this industry a long time and you’re extremely knowledgeable in this, would you say that kind of we’ll be seeing more and more updates to the refrigerant that’s used as technology improves and we try to have less of an impact on our planet and global warming? Like do you think that this next phase, because it feels like to me it went to like from R22 to R410A pretty quickly and now it’s like, oh, R410A is already like old news and we’re onto the next round, new and improved refrigerant. So how quickly are we gonna see kind of the next round and the next round? Is this something that’s gonna change every few years?
RJ: Yeah, I believe. If I remember right, 10 years from now, they’ll probably have another refrigerant, a different one.
TM: Okay.
RJ: That’ll be better for the environment ’cause they’re already testing for that. So they’re constantly going to be doing things to protect our environment that affects our industry. So I suspect that yes, we’ll see another refrigerant coming down the pipe here in short order. So we as your supplier or installer have to be careful about educating you on what’s available and what you can use. But we can’t predict the future when something’s going to happen. So like my parents had a 32-year-old system furnace and air conditioner when they decided to replace it years ago. I don’t know that you’re gonna be able to do that anymore because now with refrigerants you can’t just replace the outdoor unit or the evaporator coil. If the equipment has a new refrigerant, you gotta replace the whole thing. So in the past we’ve been able to just replace one of those components. Now it’s a little different and it will continue to be that way, sadly. So you gotta maintain it and hope that you don’t have anything that’s gonna cause a refrigerant leak so that you can keep it a long time and then we deal with it when it’s time to change it out, what refrigerant you’re gonna use.
RS: Okay.
TM: So you think that that’ll be on like five or 10 year cycles, kind of with seeing these new refrigerants coming into market?
RJ: I don’t know.
TM: Hard to know.
RJ: It’s all about, yeah, it’s really hard to know and they’re not predicting anything for us. They’re kind of giving us an idea. I’m thinking 10 years, but that’s my opinion. I don’t think it’ll be five because manufacturers have to retool for everything. So now that’s an exorbitant cost that’s passed on to me, who then passes it on my customer.
TM: It takes time to shift the whole industry and market. Yeah. Was R22 around for, was there anything before R22 or is… That was… Okay. That was around for decades, huh?
RJ: It was an easy refrigerant. It was very forgiving. You know, just like anything, as you get better and better and do things, it’s less forgiving. Not as easy to do. You know, we have certain requirements now how we have to handle these new refrigerants and stuff. So they have to stand up where we have them in jugs. Like you put big water bottles, and they tip, now they have to be standing up and secured so much better. ‘Cause they’re a little more flammable. Not where they’re gonna blow up your house or anything, but we have to be careful how we carry them in our trucks so they don’t bang around or anything like that. They now, the air conditioners now are gonna have a safety switch on them that if you get a refrigerant leak, it’s gonna shut the system down. And so you have to fix that.
TM: Wow.
RJ: Yeah. So there’s a built-in safety switch that either comes with the evaporator coil and the furnace or we have to add it as a third party when we get to your home. So that’ll put the system down until we can fix. So no longer can we use, we have chemicals like the radiator in your car. A lot of times when you have a radiator leak, they put this chemical in that forms into a gum and goes and goes to the hole and just forms a gum and seals it, is the easiest way to explain it. We have the same thing with refrigerant. We’re not gonna be able to do that anymore. We’re gonna have to find the refrigerant leak, repair it, and then fill your system with refrigerant again. So now repairs are going to be more costly.
TM: So fast forward like 10, 15 years from now, like everybody’s got these newer systems and newer refrigerant, especially in like new construction, let’s just say maybe not in a retrofit situation, but a home inspector wouldn’t be testing to see if the system might be low on refrigerant, if it’s not cooling enough ’cause that’s not even a possibility if the system is on and working?
RJ: Home inspectors don’t do that. Home inspectors don’t test any of that, so they would have to be a licensed contractor. And we have gauges and everything that we have to use to test that. And when a system isn’t cooling very well, it’s usually an indication that either the filter is bad and needs to be replaced or there’s a leak somewhere. So you’re running low on refrigerant. So then we’ll have to go find, we still have to go find it now, but it’s a little bit more forgiving than what the new refrigerants will be on how we repair that leak. So that’s a little bit of a difference. Yeah.
TM: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
RJ: So it’s kind of crazy. [laughter]
TM: Wow. Very interesting. Yeah, it’s just like old, I mean, old technology, old car. I mean, we talk about this with other guests we’ve had on with appliances like washing machines or dishwashers and it’s like, you know, people had an old clothes washer or a clothes dryer that’s like 50 years old and it’s still working fine and a part goes out and they can replace it. And now it’s like with technology and even with cars too, they’re all computers and when the chip goes out, then you’ve gotta, sometimes you just have to replace it and get a whole new one. And it’s like these, you know, a lot of appliances are… The lifespan is much shorter now too. And it sounds like with this kind of shift towards the new high efficiency system, there’s a lot of other parts and pieces that go with it too that are gonna make kind of doing repairs and maintenance not cost effective anymore. It’s like you get the system, it has to be maintained and installed well, but then, you know, doing the maintenance will cost a lot more, be more difficult. Is that true?
RJ: While we’re in this transition. So right now the manufacturers are… So the furnaces are getting new efficiencies as well. They’re going up in efficiency. So they’re retooling for all this new equipment. So what’s happening is they’re not manufacturing as many of the parts for the old system, the things that are out in the industry right now. So now we’re gonna find that blower motors might be suspect to finding condensing fan motors. That’s the fan motor that’s in your air conditioner. That might be harder to find or maybe not available at all. So you might have a six-year-old system and be forced now to have to replace it because there are no parts available for repair.
RS: Oh gosh.
RJ: That’s my biggest fear. And we’re seeing a little bit of that right now ’cause the manufacturers are so busy trying to meet this requirement. Either manufacturing all the equipment they can right now and the efficiencies and the standards that they are today, and then they’ll turn everything over come January 1, 2025 to the new, or there’s a lot of manufacturers moving to all the new requirements and all the new refrigerants right now. And so they’re not spending a lot of time on repair parts, and we’re finding it harder to get… Less suppliers here are stocking replacement parts.
RS: Okay. So you said furnaces are going to get more efficient. Today, you get a high efficiency furnace. We say it’s 90% efficient plus, but I regularly see furnaces rated at 95 up to even 98% efficient. How much more efficient are we gonna get? I mean, are we going for 99.5% efficient? And then follow up to that, I mean, I assume that part of that efficiency has to do with the energy consumption of the furnace’s blower fan. And I’m assuming they’re gonna change all the old DC motors into, what is it, ECM motors?
TM: ECM?
RJ: Yeah, they’ve done that already.
RS: Oh, they’ve already done that?
RJ: They’ve already done that.
RS: So whats left?
RJ: So we have 92.1% efficient furnaces that are still on the market. They’re the least efficient on the market. And so 96 used to be the highest. So now those 96 efficient furnaces, and there was 95 and 96, now we’re moving those 95s up to 96%. The 96s are going to 97 and 98% efficiency. And then rebates for you for those efficiencies are really tapering… Are tapering off for the, like the 92.1 and the 95. And they’re giving you more money back from CenterPoint Energy for the higher efficient furnaces right now. And that’s suspect to change as well. There’s legislation to change that.
RJ: So yes, they’re going up more in efficiency, the gas valves are becoming more complicated, so they’re efficient. But keep in mind, we’re also in this electrify everything theme to get more and more efficient. And so in the south, like California they no longer make houses that have anything gas associated with it. It’s all electric. But we here in Minnesota have our cold, cold winters, and electric heating does… You need a lot of stuff to heat your house properly. Even with a heat pump, you need backup source of heat when that heat pump stops working ’cause it’s too cold outside. So now you need electric strip heat or electric plenum heaters instead of gas if you want to go all electric. I love having a gas backup for my furnace. It’s a nice warm heat but they’re trying to get away from gas furnaces. But we’ll still need it here in Minnesota. So that’s, they’re looking at that as well. So there’s a lot going on in our industry right now and it can be very confusing. And we can’t predict the future, but we can tell you what we know now. And we can help you make the best decision for your house, your comfort, efficiency and your budget. Yes.
RS: So now while we’re talking about more high efficiency furnaces, I remember back, maybe five, 10 years ago, I don’t remember how long ago it was, there was this big mandate that was coming. Everybody knew it was coming. All the heating contractors were just saying, this is coming to replace your furnace now before it’s here, where they were gonna eliminate all of the mid efficiency furnaces or low efficiency like the 80 percenters. And all you’d be allowed to install was a high efficiency furnace. And this was a big deal for people say, in a middle unit townhome, where you’ve got an 80% efficient furnace, it’s vented right through the middle of the house with this big metal pipe that goes up through the roof. And then you were gonna have to switch that out to high efficiency where you’ve got a plastic pipe, you were gonna have to use PVC. And it’s like, well, how the heck you supposed to do this through all this thinner space? I mean, this is gonna be cost prohibitive and people were up in arms. It was a big deal. And then we got right up to the deadline. Like maybe December 31st, it was supposed to take place the next day. And they said, ah, just kidding. We’re not going to do this. And it went away. Do you remember that?
RJ: Yeah, I do. We had a lot of people panicking. And we were panicking because we have tons of townhouses out there that use 80% efficient furnaces. So you have 80% efficient furnaces and then you have 92.1. So the 92.1 and higher uses PVC pipes to vent and it’s usually out the side of your house. It can go up the roof, but it can’t go in the same chimney as your water heater, your atmospheric water heater. So if you’re in a townhouse right now with an 80% efficient furnace, even your water heater goes through your chimney. So when it comes time for that 80% efficient furnace to be replaced, if we can no longer put an 80% in your home because it’s been mandated that it’s gone, and we put a high efficient furnace in, we have to figure out how to get those pipes outside.
RJ: And we can’t be in the driveway, we have to be so far away from windows and sidewalks. So there’s a lot of constraints. So there’ll be some remodeling on the part of the homeowner, a lot of remodeling. Now, that mandate hasn’t happened. We’re still hearing rumors that might happen in 2028, it might happen in 2032. So it’s going to come. With electrify everything and the initiative to rid our heating of gas, natural gas usage, it’s going to come. So there will be ways to heat your house. A lot of those we can just use heat pumps that looks just like your air conditioner but it’ll heat your home. And then we use an air handler instead with electric strip heat in it. So I know that sounds really complicated, but there are ways we’re gonna be able to help you in most cases. It just depends on which unit you are and where you’re positioned in the, let’s say you’re in a six flex and you’re in unit, in the middle, one of the two in the middle, you’re getting heat from the other side from your neighbors essentially. So we might be able to use an air handler with a heat pump and you’ll be fine in the winter versus the two end units might be a little more challenging, but they actually have an extra exterior wall. So we might be able to vent that way without you having to remodel a whole bunch in your house.
RS: Okay. All right.
RJ: If that makes sense. Yeah. So we’ll find a way to make it work, but it can be pretty scary because if there’s no way to get those pipes outside without remodeling, then we have to figure something out.
RS: Gotcha. But somehow it’s in the future, like years away.
RJ: Right. We don’t have to worry about it now. And we’ll get, you know, so we’ll get more and more information on that I think after January 1, 2025, when we get through this new transition of new refrigerant and higher efficient furnaces. And then now they’ll start talking about eliminating the 80% and give us forewarning so we can put in existing 80% efficient furnaces with a new 80% efficient furnace so you can get ahead of the game, ’cause that can last you 20 to 25 years. So then you don’t have to worry about remodeling your home until it’s time to replace it again. So there’s options out there.
TM: Yeah. You might be able to buy your time if you’re in a condo or a townhome and get a new 80 percenter furnace right before that mandate comes into effect and kick the can down the road. But inevitably it sounds like there’s going to be changes that will force people to switch over systems somehow. And I kind of wonder at that point, like if it’s 20 years from when this mandate comes down the road, are we still going to be allowing natural gas at that point? Is it gonna be all electric? And then people won’t switch over to a high efficiency natural gas furnace, they’ll switch over to a heat pump or something else.
RJ: Heat pumps are the new thing in the market. They have… Here in the metro area of Minnesota, they haven’t been as popular because CenterPoint Energy did not offer a program for heat pumps. We’re out in our rural areas, a lot of the electrical companies offered off-peak programs if you used a heat pump in the summer and the winter to heat your home. They heat down to about 25, 30 degrees, then you need to switch over to fossil fuel or natural gas or some form of other electric heating. And so now that the electrify everything mandate is there, heat pumps are becoming more and more popular.
RJ: And there’s tax credits available for homeowners that choose to replace their air conditioner with the heat pump. And so I did that in my house, I have a gas furnace and I just put in a heat pump and I love it. I used it last winter. Last winter was kind of not a great way to see how it works because our average temperature was like 52 versus our 30 below, less than 20 below wind chill. So it was a different winter but it was fun. I love it. It was great for cooling my home. It was very efficient, very high efficient. My electric bill was lower this summer. So yeah, it’s a new way to go. So we present all the different options for you and talk about the future. And we’re always talking about our equipment is always 50% of your gas and your electric bill comes from your furnace and your air conditioner, what you’re using to heat and cool your home. We wanna reduce that as much as possible to free up your budget. So we talk about high efficiencies, but it still goes back to what you want, what your budget will allow, what your comfort level is so we can get you the right choice. So that might be a heat pump or it might be a standard air conditioner. Those are still available. So, and it will be in the new refrigerants too going forward or in R410A while they’re available. So it’s just a matter of what you’re doing in your home.
RS: Now, I got another question related to replacing all of this. When the time comes, how much more are people gonna end up paying for the new high efficiency air conditioners? What’s the big change in price that you expect?
RJ: Hey, everybody, sit down. [laughter] Furnace and air… So right now we’re putting in a furnace and air conditioner today. It’s a side discharge heat pump with a 96% variable speed furnace and that’s $20,000 install. Okay?
TM: Wow.
RJ: By next year, we hear that our equipment prices are going up 10 to 20% from all the manufacturers. So that includes installation. But you’re probably gonna be at 22, 23% efficient, or $22,000 or $23,000. So this is not a $10,000 replacement anymore. I used to be able to sell a basic 80% efficient furnace with a basic 13 air conditioner for $8,000 to $10,000 before COVID hit. And our industry took a huge jump in prices during COVID and it’s just continuing to go up. On top of the labor because we have so few people entering our industry, our labor prices are going up. So that’s being passed on to the homeowner. So this is a significant thing you have to plan for. You’ll wanna plan for ’cause you know it… A furnace can be $6,000 to $10,000 a roll now. An air conditioner, that same, you add a heat pump, that can be $12,000 to $15,000, for just the heat pump, without the furnace or air handler to go with it. So it’s a very expensive thing.
RS: Holy cow.
RJ: Yeah, it’s getting very expensive. I’m sorry about that. I’m trying to keep my prices as low as possible and still stay in business, but it’s a significant purchase now and one you need to plan for. We offer financing, a lot of our competitors offer financing, but we can’t control the costs that are coming from our manufacturers because they need to keep up with what the government is asking them to do. And it costs money.
RS: Wow.
TM: That is just… Just to make sure I heard you right, pre-COVID, so like 2019, you could install a furnace and an AC that were less efficient, but for eight to 10 grand, and now fast forward four or five years, and we’re looking at probably 22,000, 23,000 for both?
RJ: Yes.
TM: That’s just shocking, isn’t it? But I mean, it’s good to hear this from you, Robin, and it’s good to be aware of what’s coming down the road too with these technologies that are gonna be required and these new refrigerants and everything, just so that we can try to educate homeowners on just budgeting for maintenance, budgeting for replacement of these systems. It’s gonna be a big chunk of change. I think a lot of homeowners are gonna be surprised at how much it’s gonna cost to meet these new requirements and to have these new systems put in.
RJ: Well, and what you’ll wanna do is, like you said, maintenance. These systems require regular maintenance. We have a maintenance program that makes that very affordable for you, but just simply changing your furnace filter on a regular basis or hiring us to do that will prolong your life of your system significantly. So it’s not just the initial investment, it’s also what you need to do every year. It’s just like changing the oil on your car. The more you do that when it’s supposed to be done, the longer the car will last and the less breakdowns. We have the same thing. This equipment is very sophisticated and the parts that need to be replaced when they break down are significant prices. So you’ll wanna get on like our club where we offer you discounts for that going forward and for any parts. There’s warranties with the manufacturers. You’ll wanna take advantage of those warranties, both parts and labor warranties. Make sure that you’re in on all those programs so that you can utilize what’s there to keep the costs as low as possible. And keep in mind, we put in an 80% efficient furnace the other day with a 13.4 CO2 air conditioner. That was $14,200 install. So they’re not all in the twenty or whatever. We find the best thing for you and your budget, but the budget is bigger now. It’s a bigger budget now.
RJ: But what’s nice is if we figure it out right for you, we get you in the right system, it can take your $300… Let’s say you have a $300 electric bill in the summer to $400, half of that is your air conditioner, okay? So now we’re down to $150 a month. What if we can get that down to $100 or $75 a month and we’re saving you $50 to $75 a month? What can you do with that? Maybe put that in maintenance, buy more coffee, put it in your Disney World fund, what have you. So we look at those things too to help you, but maintenance will be key with these new systems.
RS: Well, and, I mean, it’s a big initial investment, but then you’re gonna be saving that for the life of the product. I mean, it’s gonna be 20 years and that’s 20 years assuming a fixed cost of electricity. We know in 20 years we’re gonna be paying a lot more than whatever we’re at now, 14 cents a kilowatt hour or something. It ain’t gonna be 14 cents anymore. It’s gonna be a lot more than that. So you’re gonna continue to keep saving that through the life of the appliance.
RJ: That’s what we try to educate our homeowners on. I know it’s a big upfront cost, but sometimes it can significantly pay for itself in a short period. We try to help our homeowners with it.
TM: Yeah. So I was gonna ask you, Robin, what you would put in your own house, but you already answered that question. You said you’ve got a natural gas furnace that’s your backup, and then you’ve got your heat pump system. What’s the difference between, cost-wise of replacing, like let’s just say someone has a standard natural gas furnace and then your standard AC, what would be the cost of switching over to like a heat pump instead of just a standard AC system? Is there a big difference?
RJ: Yes, the heat pump is for… It can be anywhere between $1,200 and $4,000 more depending on the efficiency and the type of system that it is. But then we do a calculation for you and show you that when it’s installed right, you’re gonna save this much on your electric as well as your gas bill, because the heat pump can heat your home until it’s 25 to 30 degrees outside. So what I like about my heat pump is I can decide, am I gonna have it on natural gas based on my gas price versus my electric price? So it gives you the ability to decide what you wanna do. Now, we set your thermostat up based on temperature and it’ll switch over to your fossil fuel or backup heat source, whatever that may be. But there’s also a contingency in your thermostat that you can switch it yourself if you want to. Last year it was really, really warm. It stayed on heat pump all winter. My electric bill was very low compared to the year before. And I had virtually nothing on my gas bill. So it was a very nice winter as far as paying my utility bills, I didn’t have to do too much. So that was great. What happens this winter, it’ll be interesting to see. I’m excited about that part because it’s supposed to be snowing cold. So we love extreme temperatures here at High Road, just so you know, really hot, really cold. So I’m looking forward, if that is true, you know…
TM: Testing it out.
RJ: Not only to see how my heat pump performs but also to see where my gas and my electric bill is.
TM: Well, so it makes sense. I mean, I think… Yeah. So the difference between like a, just putting in a standard AC system of someone’s needing to replace both their furnace and AC and upgrading to a heat pump, it seems like it makes sense to spend that extra, what did you say? $400 to $1200 for a heat pump system?
RJ: 1,200 to 4,000. 1,200 to 4,000.
TM: It seems like that would be a very good return on investment.
RJ: Yes. Yes, if you utilize it right, and we train you how to utilize it right. But it’s kind of a new concept here in the Metro, the Minneapolis-Seven County Metro area ’cause we’re big Xcel users for our electric and they didn’t have a heat pump program. So this seems new to a lot of homeowners but heat pumps have been around forever. But there’s a little more in there because in the summer it spins one way, and in the winter, the fan on the outside spins the other to grab the heat. Just kind of like your ceiling fans in your house, you have them running one way in the summer and one way in the winter. So it’s the same thing with the heat pump. But it cools your house. You don’t know which one is cool. You know the heat pump’s cooling your house but in the winter, you won’t know if it’s the heat pump or your furnace that’s heating your house. You just want to be comfortable and pay less money on your utility bill. That’s where we come in to help you.
RS: Excellent. Well, Robin, if people want to get ahold of you, how can they find you or reach out?
RJ: Well, we got two ways. We got our website, highroadheating.com and it’s H-I-G-H, roadheating.com, highroadheating.com, or our main number, 763-477-3331. I’m always happy to answer questions. I love what I do.
RS: Cool.
TM: Thank you so much, Robin, for coming on the show. You are so much good information and knowledge of this industry and it’s very exciting to meet another woman in this industry who’s so knowledgeable because I think, we were just talking about this before we started recording, it’s male-dominated. And I can’t tell you, I don’t think we’ve ever had a woman HVAC specialist, expert on our show before, let alone business owner, so it’s very exciting to see that. Are you seeing more women entering this industry?
RJ: Trying. I do my best to try and promote it with our young people, our juniors and seniors in high school, making them aware of the fabulous careers for women here. I talk about it. Some people are afraid ’cause they think we’re getting dirty. I don’t get very dirty in my job. If I work in the field, I do, and that’s okay. I plan for that, but it’s fun. I always wanted, somebody asked me one time, in your career, what do you want? I said, I want to learn something new every day. Just with thermostats in our industry, I’m learning one or two things new every day. Now let’s look at all the other aspects of our industry.
TM: Oh my gosh, yeah.
RJ: So I’m fulfilling that and it’s a fun industry. There’s a lot, you’re on the cusp of all the new things in construction you’re involved in. Everywhere you go, there’s heating and cooling. You know, rest of the world, it’s cooling. For us, we have heating and cooling. You go to Florida, they don’t do heating, but they do cooling, and they do it in a different way than we do here. So it’s just a diverse industry, but lots of information, and it’s a lot of fun ’cause it’s constantly changing.
RS: Just, funny question, have you ever hired or even interviewed a woman technician, someone who’s gonna work out in the field?
RJ: Oh yes. I’m killing to have women work for me in the field. I had one woman that I interviewed, but she moved to Texas, so she took a job in Texas because her partner got a promotion at work and was moving to Texas. Otherwise, she would have been working for me. I’ve tried, there’s a couple women here in town that are appliance repair. I’ve reached out to them, you know, and stuff. So there’s very few. I’ve been getting my oil changed and a female is working on my vehicle. I’m giving her my card, wanting her to interview her because she gets mechanics, and we can easily teach her heating and cooling. So I’m always trying to recruit women to our industry, ’cause you can have a life after work in this industry. You know, you start early, your day is done at 3:30, 4 o’clock, you got the whole evening, and you have weekends available to you. People forget about that. You can set your own hours. You can work four days a week, three days a week, depending on how you structure your work with the company you’re working for. So there’s a lot of flexibility here and it isn’t always dirty and icky all the time. There’s a lot of time, most of the time it’s really cool work, and you get to meet a lot of cool people, see some beautiful homes and office buildings, and then see not-so-beautiful homes and office buildings, but it’s fun ’cause now you got something to talk about.
TM: Every day is different. Yeah.
RJ: You know? [laughter] So it’s really a cool industry, and I’m hoping more women will choose to enter it.
RS: I hope so too.
TM: Me too. Me too. Thank you so much, Robin, for coming on the show, and I’ve got even more questions to ask you, of course when you mentioned thermostats and you learn something new every day. I feel like we could have a whole podcast on just talking about the new smart thermostats and their different capabilities and things that they’re doing. So, thanks for coming on.
[music]
RJ: And you have to be careful with them, yeah. You have to be careful with thermostats. Well, it’s an honor to be here. I’m just so thrilled. I’d love to come again if you ever need me.
RS: That sounds good.
TM: We should definitely do that.
RS: We will do that. All right. Thank you, Robin, appreciate it.
RJ: Thank you. See you.
RS: Take care. And for the listeners, if you got any questions, as always please email us, podcast@structuretech.com. We’ll catch you next time.