In this episode, Reuben Saltzman and Tessa Murray discuss the growing trend of four-point inspections in Minnesota with guests Eric Houseman and John Bolton. They explore the history and origin of four-point inspections, particularly in Florida, and the challenges homeowners face in securing insurance. The conversation delves into the implications of these inspections on home buying and selling, the differences between four-point inspections and traditional home inspections, and the importance of educating consumers about the inspection process. The episode concludes with insights on navigating the evolving landscape of home inspections and insurance requirements.
Takeaways
Four-point inspections are becoming more common in Minnesota.
The history of four-point inspections dates back to Hurricane Andrew in 1992.
Insurance companies in Florida are increasingly selective about coverage.
Homeowners face significant challenges in obtaining insurance due to inspection results.
Four-point inspections focus on plumbing, electrical, HVAC, and roofing systems.
There is a growing trend of using four-point inspections as a substitute for full home inspections.
Consumer education is crucial to avoid misconceptions about inspection reports.
The insurance landscape is changing, making it harder for older homes to get coverage.
Home inspectors must navigate pressure from agents and consumers regarding inspection results.
The future of home inspections may involve more detailed requirements from insurance companies.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Show and Guests
02:08 The Rise of Four-Point Inspections in Minnesota
08:44 History and Origin of Four-Point Inspections
11:41 Insurance Challenges in Florida
16:12 The Impact of Four-Point Inspections on Home Insurance
22:20 The Future of Home Inspections and Insurance
29:11 Comparing Four-Point Inspections to Traditional Home Inspections
37:27 Consumer Education and Misconceptions
46:19 Navigating the Challenges of Inspections and Insurance
55:20 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
TRANSCRIPTION
The following is a transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be slightly incomplete or contain minor inaccuracies due to inaudible passages or transcription errors
Reuben Saltzman: Welcome to my house. Welcome to the Structure Talk podcast, a production of Structure Tech Home Inspections. My name is Reuben Saltzman. I’m your host alongside building science geek, Tessa Murray. We help home inspectors up their game through education, and we help homeowners to be better stewards of their houses. We’ve been keeping it real on this podcast since 2019, and we are also the number one home inspection podcast in the world, according to my mom. Welcome back to the show. I’m Reuben Saltzman alongside my co-host, Tessa Murray. Tessa, as always, great to see you. We’ve got a couple of…
Tessa Murray: Good to see you.
RS: Good. Yeah, it’s good to be back. And we’ve got a couple of guests on today. We’ve got Eric Houseman, multiple guests from our companies coming on.
TM: Houseman.
RS: Houseman, the best name for a home inspector ever created. His parents obviously knew what he’d be doing before he was ever born.
TM: Destined for this.
RS: Yeah, he was destined for this, Houseman. And we’ve also got repeat guest, Jon Bolton on the show. Jon, from Florida. How are you doing, sir?
Jon Bolton: Awesome. Life is good, man. Thank you so much for having me here. I love this show.
RS: We love having you. You guys will probably remember, Tessa had arranged for a bunch of home inspectors to come on our show when we were doing a series. What was that series called, Tess?
TM: Oh my gosh. Well, hey, I can’t remember the title of the series, but you know what? Jon was just telling us before we started the show that he’s listened to every single podcast dating back to 2021. So Jon, do you remember what that series was called?
JB: I wish I could remember the name of it, but it was so good. What a boss idea, man. Talking to people in different geographical regions of the United States that had different weatherization stories, different building science type stories. It was just really cool.
TM: It was fun, yeah. Diving into the different issues and types of homes that each area of the country had. So yeah, We had you on, Jon, to talk about Florida, Florida houses, Florida inspections, and typical problems that you guys run into down there, and that was very, very informative.
RS: All right. So Eric, I know he just Googled it. Eric, what was it?
Eric Houseman: I did. It’s Regional Inspection Differences.
RS: Boom.
TM: There we go.
RS: Okay.
EH: I pulled it up on Spotify on my…
RS: Excellent…
EH: ’cause I have it, I have this as one of my favorites, of course.
RS: Awesome. Thank you, Eric. So today we’re gonna be talking about four-point inspections, because these have arrived in Minnesota. They’re here. They’re not here as serious as it is in other parts of the country, like Florida. I mean, back when I first started getting into home inspections, and I attended like this home inspection school about 20 years ago, I remember them saying something about four-point inspections, but, oh, it only happens in Florida. Well, 20 years later, here we are in Minnesota. So Eric, what are we seeing? What are the requests that we’re getting when it comes to four-point inspections?
EH: Great question. So I’ll start with a bit of history. I believe I learned about this like two or three years ago when we first really got into going to IEB conferences back in the day. And I would hear buzz about Florida inspectors, I believe it was even Jon that I was talking to about it, or another home inspector down there, about four-point inspections. And I did some research when I got home, and I was… We’re always looking for ways to supplement business to the inspector’s calendars during the slow season. And I was like, ooh, what a great opportunity. I’m going to research this. And I reached out to a good number of insurance companies at the time, including my own. And everybody that I talked to was like, nope, it’s not a thing, or we have our own people that do those, or something similar to those.
EH: That’s just something down south that’s not gonna happen up here. So I gave it up. And I was like, all right, not worth my time. I did the research. But continuing conversations, I felt like the writing was on the wall, that this was going to happen. I was talking to my wife about this last night, ’cause she was like, what’s the podcast about this week? Why are you going on the podcast? And it came up, and I always use this movie quote whenever I can. For those of you that have seen the Oceans series, like Oceans 11, Oceans 12, Oceans 13, in Oceans 11, there’s a scene with a palm reader or a tarot card reader. One of the actors is in this tent, and these gangsters come in behind him, and he looks at the tarot card reader and goes, this? You couldn’t see this? It’s like, I could see this coming from a mile away. Anyway, that’s my cultural reference for the day.
EH: Some people will get it. Some people won’t. But then about, I would say it was 10 months ago, we started getting phone calls and emails at the office from clients who had had home inspections done with us, and they were reaching out to the home inspector or to the office, and they were asking us to sign off on letters saying that these four systems, plumbing, electrical, HVAC, and the roof, were in “good condition”, and it was about getting insurance and getting approved for insurance. And…
EH: We didn’t really know what was going to end up happening with this. So we just were kind of reviewing reports and saying no. And initially it was like, we don’t want anything to do with this. And then it started to accelerate more and more and more. And now we’re at the point where I have a template developed for it, which is based off our home inspection template. And we’ve actually been doing these for current homeowners, not home inspection clients, but current homeowners who I have talked to, who anecdotally have said, my current insurance provider has increased my rates by one and a half to three X over the last six months to a year. And I’m switching insurance companies. And the company that I’m switching to says, I need this. So they’re paying money for us to come out, review these systems, provide a report with these four systems. And then if everything’s in good condition, we provide them a letter signed by the inspector saying, you’re good to go.
RS: Okay. All right. So I wanna jump in real quick. IEB, you mentioned that briefly is our show sponsor, Inspector Empire Builder. That’s where you first heard about this was at one of the IEB conferences. And that’s where Jon and I really got to know each other is just hanging out at these conferences. You meet so many fantastic people. So shout out to IEB, wonderful organization. So much stuff that we learned. I mean, we were way ahead of the curve on this. You were doing all the research before this was even a thing here in Minnesota.
RS: Thanks to stuff that we picked up at these conferences. We knew which way the wind was blowing. So there’s my shout out to IEB, fantastic organization, whether you’re a multi-inspector company or a single person shop, they’re a great company to reach out to for coaching and training. But back to the topic. So we’re doing a lot of them now, but I feel like there’s a lot more information about these. And there’s a lot of advice that we could glean from people who’ve been doing it a long time.
RS: And that’s why we got Jon on the show. And Jon, I got the feeling this is going to be a long episode ’cause you have talked my ear off about insurance stuff. And I just soak it up. I mean, I love hearing about it. And I’ve retold a lot of the stories that you told me the first time. But I surely got, like half of the details wrong. I wanna hear a lot of it just coming from your mouth. So Jon, take us back down history lane. Where did four-point inspections come from? Number one, number two, and I’ll have a lot more follow-up questions. I’m sure Tessa and Eric will too. But the stuff I want to hear, where did this come from? And why is insurance so messed up in Florida? I want to get those two questions answered. Maybe we can get that done in the first hour. Go.
JB: Yeah, yeah, we’ll try. I’ll talk really, really fast. Now, listen, they started back… We had Hurricane Andrew was in like 1992. It was pretty bad, lots of damages. And shortly thereafter, this inspection was born. Back in the day, I got in the business in ’98. And my employer at the time, they called them JUAs.
JB: And I’m like, what’s a JUA? I thought I was here to do home inspections. JUA stood for Joint Underwriters Association. And that’s what we always called them, JUAs. And at some point, they started calling them four-points because roofing, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, the major points. Back in the day, again, they were also very simple. They wanted to know what you had, had there been any updates, was something partially replaced, fully replaced, any repairs, anything like that on each of these systems and a life expectancy.
JB: Makes total sense. And back then, we also had to look and guess where the fire hydrant was, which is a minor little thing. But that’s all it was. It was very, very simple. And again, it makes a lot of sense. They wanna know what they’re insuring. Are they insuring a very high-risk house, something with a roof that’s 20 years old, an AC system that’s 20 years old, a defective, known defective electrical panel? These type of things. And I get it. Totally get it. It makes a lot of sense, which is why I also think it makes sense for the whole country to be doing this. If I were the insurer, I’m like, wow, what an awesome idea. There’s home inspectors all over the country. Let’s hire them to go do those things.
JB: So it makes complete, total sense. At this point, though, things have gotten out of hand. Prices are going through the roof, like Eric mentioned. The, and I was just watching a presentation from Insurance Hub. It was the senior advisor, Lauren Lee was her name. And she stated in there, like, mind you, this was very recent. She stated that even if you have a clean loss record, speaking to Florida people, you can expect a 10 to 50% rate increase in the next couple of years. With a clean loss record, if you don’t have a clean loss record, you are looking at 50 to 150% increase. Okay, now that in and of itself is mind-blowing.
JB: Now add on Hurricane Helene, and the prices can’t go down. They’re only going to go up. We’re all gonna bear the brunt of this. So it won’t get any better. It just can’t get any better.
TM: Wow.
JB: Yeah, Citizens is what they consider the insurer of last resort. It was created by Florida for Floridians. If you couldn’t get insurance anywhere else, you got it from Citizens. And it turned out they were less expensive, and a lot of people were going that way. And then all of a sudden, there was this exodus of insurers out of Florida for a lot of obvious reasons. And even fewer providers. So Citizens’ book went way up, and now they have too many. And it makes it very difficult to manage that much, to insure that much. And if we have another major disaster, it could collapse. So Citizens is on a path to cull out a ton of policies. So they have even publicly stated that they are increasing inspections. And there’s two kinds of inspections.
JB: There’s not just four-point, there’s something else. And I got stories about that, too. They’re increasing their inspections from an annual 5200-ish per year to 350,000 per year by 2025. And that’s what right around the corner.
RS: Yeah.
JB: In a few months. So again, not going away and they’re gonna get worse. On our four-point, what people affectionately refer to as the four-point form is something Citizens created. It was something that says, here’s what we recommend. And everybody uses it.
JB: So we refer to that as the Citizens report. Okay. And like I said, in the beginning, it was very simple. And now, wait till you see some of this… Some of the stuff on there is kind of like a small home inspection. Okay. You have to… This is quote off the form, the general condition of the following plumbing fixtures and connections to appliances.
JB: And it’s got satisfactory, unsatisfactory, non-applicable. Does the dishwasher work? Is it satisfactory? Non-satisfactory. Refrigerator, washing machine, water heater, showers, tubs, toilets, sinks, sump pumps, water shutoff valve, and all other visible just in case they forgot something.
TM: Wow.
JB: And a four-point. Does that sound like a four-point or a mini home inspection?
EH: Sounds like the home inspection of the plumbing system.
TM: Yes.
EH: Yeah.
JB: Exactly. Exactly.
TM: Wow.
JB: So we’ve got to do all this stuff. And of course they want pictures of everything. So under every sink, in other words, every valve, under every sink, behind every toilet, behind your washing machine, all of those things. And so what’s the condition of satisfactory on a dishwasher? Okay well…
TM: Yeah, define that.
JB: You’re gonna have to run it and define it. Here’s a good one. Talk about a water heater. What if you amp the elements and one works and one doesn’t? Is it satisfactory or not?
TM: Good question.
JB: Good question.
EH: Who knows?
JB: Does it function as intended?
EH: No.
JB: Well, it produces some hot water. It might not last as long as you want it to.
TM: Yeah.
JB: Okay. So here we go. You find one with a non-working element and you got to say unsatisfactory. And everybody’s mad. Well, I didn’t make up the form. I just fill in the blanks. With the roof, they’re asking are there evidences and they even put in here are there evidences of leaks? And that means, and they ask you, are there stains in the attic? Are there stains on the ceiling? Okay. On the interior ceilings? Yes or no. Okay. Any visible signs of leak interior ceilings? Well, yeah. Even if they have a new roof, that stain, people just usually let it go. They don’t spray it with kills or anything like that. It’s there. When you do have that roof leak, sometimes that stain is there forever.
EH: Yes, it is there forever. Absolutely. Yeah. It is very unusual for us to inspect an old in Minneapolis and St. Paul and not have stains on the roof sheathing.
JB: Exactly.
EH: They all have stains on the roof sheathing.
JB: Okay. So if you start using this form, you’re going to have to start marking those.
EH: Oh gosh.
JB: And how many people are you going to upset with that?
EH: Every single one of them.
TM: So are the insurance companies denying coverage then when you mark something as unsatisfactory or what can they deny coverage for?
JB: Oh my goodness. They are finding not only that, but they’re finding a lot of excuses to deny all kinds of stuff. I put together my short little list of stories here so I wouldn’t forget them ’cause I get really excited. So I made a list here. I had…
RS: Let’s go.
JB: Yeah. Right. Listen to this. You’re going to love this one. Dennis Neal, a friend of mine, the insurance companies requiring, mind you, this is Florida. Required that the water heater be strapped for, have earthquake straps. Wait a minute. We don’t have earthquakes here. But you can’t get insurance unless your Florida water heater was strapped.
TM: Oh my goodness.
JB: Isn’t that a good one?
EH: I’ve seen water heater straps in books.
JB: You did, exactly.
EH: I’ve never actually seen one in person or the same way in Minnesota. They don’t exist here.
JB: I’ve got several friends who relay stories. You might not get insurance if your roof is dirty.
TM: What?
JB: Yes. Yes. And wait till, oh my God wait till we get into Cape Analytics, okay? Because the insurance companies, all insurance companies across the country can now use this… I’m diving right into it. They can use this system from Cape Analytics. It’s a property condition, a roof rating, something like, I’ll come up with the correct word, but it’s this roof rating where they can go on something like Google Earth and look at your house. And if you’ve got any tree limbs hanging over, no soup for you. If you have dirty gutters, no soup for you.
TM: Whoa.
JB: Seriously. So they’re judging the condition sitting behind a computer somewhere that your roof is good or no good. We have… And that’s one of my stories. One of my friends had a roof. They looked at it from the satellite and they said, his premium went up $3,000. And he’s like, why? And they’re like, well, your roof is old. He goes, it’s three years old. Well, their satellite image was before that.
RS: Oh my goodness.
TM: Oh my gosh.
JB: But hey, this is the system they’re using.
RS: Yeah.
JB: Yeah, Mike Pegasolski and I probably butcher that. He was telling that they had a client was denied or could not get insurance. Couldn’t bind that policy until they clean their gutters. They considered it a hazard.
TM: Your houses don’t even have basements.
JB: Yeah exactly. Oh, my God. Brad Meeks had a client. The insurance company dropped him because he had solar panels. Because he could sell electricity back to the electrical company. That’s a business and they don’t insure businesses.
EH: Oh, my goodness.
RS: So they really are just looking for any excuse they can to cull their list of insureds, what’s the name for it? Whatever it is.
JB: Insureds?
TM: Yeah. Clients, yeah.
RS: Clients, yeah.
TM: Florida clients.
JB: One of our own inspectors, he has one of those, there’s four metal poles with a little arched metal roof that you park an RV under.
RS: Yeah.
TM: Yeah.
JB: They move into their house and they have one of these. He doesn’t have an RV, but he’s just got this thing. It’s a detached metal thing that sits over there. They would not bind him until he cleaned that roof.
EH: Oh, my gosh.
TM: What?
JB: Wouldn’t bind his house. I had one where the guy calls and he says, you did my inspection several years ago. And your heart drops like, oh, my God, what did I miss? Is it burned down or what? Anyway, it scared me. It scared the bejesus out of me. But he says, insurance is going to drop me unless I have an inspection because he has not updated the low voltage on his pool. Yeah, exactly. So what am I inspecting? Okay. The light comes on and goes off.
EH: Yeah.
JB: Yeah. Well, what was I going to do? And here’s one you’re going to love. One of our other old inspectors, Bo, you know Bo Passon.
RS: Yeah. Good guy.
JB: He had one where the insurance company says you have to fix something on the roof. They have a licensed roofer go over there. He fixes this. Let me back up. This roof is four years old. Okay. It’s pretty new. The roofer goes over there and takes care of this thing. He had to replace a couple of shingles because he had to get to flashing around the chimney. So he fixes that. They take a picture, send it back in. They go, well, we’re going to drop you now because we don’t insure roofs that have been repaired.
RS: And they made him repair it?
JB: Yes, they made him repair it.
RS: Oh, my gosh.
TM: Oh, my gosh.
JB: Yeah.
RS: Wow.
JB: This all sounds like a great idea. It all makes sense. But here they’re just Citizens is so fat, they’ve got to get rid of these policies. So they’re trying to clean some things up and get rid of people that they don’t want. And you’re going to pay for it. One of us is going to pay for it.
RS: Yeah. Holy cow.
TM: Oh, my goodness. So if you get dropped by one insurance company, then what are your chances of finding another one that’ll take you?
JB: Yeah, well, they have a system in place called forced placed. And if you don’t have insurance, you have a mortgage on it, you don’t have insurance, they will put a policy in place for you. It’s going to be their job to find it. Now, it may end up being somebody like a Lloyd’s of London, or somebody like that. And you’re going to pay through the nose. So then you got to be thinking, oh, my gosh, am I going to pay X thousands per year? Or do I just get a new roof? Do I get a new electrical panel? Do I replumb?
TM: Yeah. Wow.
JB: You got to start making decisions. So on one hand, if you’re going to be in your house for quite a while, and you update these things, well, you’re safer, and you won’t have to worry about it for a while, you go to sell it, it won’t be an issue, etcetera. But it’s going to cost you. Now here we are in this inflation happy economy, and people’s wallets are not as thick as they used to be. So now what do you do? You somehow you’re going to pay, or you’re going to go in debt for it. So…
TM: Or are you going to move out of Florida? Everyone’s moving to Florida right now. I just saw an article recently, I think it was by the Star Tribune or something that was showing kind of the migration path over the last few years of just the United States and Florida was like one of the number one places people are moving to.
JB: Yeah, of course, because, the air quotes warm weather. It’s more like hot and sweaty 10 months of the year. But, hey, I’m born and raised in Florida. I love Florida. This is home. I get it. I always say, I used to make fun of Yankees when they come down here, and the snowbirds. During their winter, they come down here, and now I want to be one.
[laughter]
JB: I definitely want to be one.
RS: Yeah, that’s on my list of things to do someday, too.
JB: Yeah, right.
RS: Yeah.
JB: So, besides the four-points, Citizens is also, because the flooding is an issue, and they have to pay out so much for that, they are going to start requiring flood insurance, and they broke it down by year. And by April 2023, which just happened, new customers in certain zones must have it, and they go on. So we’re here in 2024, homes up to, by January 1, 2024, homes insured for $600,000 or more must have flood insurance. By 2025, in just a couple months, homes insured up to $500,000. In 2026, up to $400,000, and by 2027, every single Citizens’ policy will have a flood coverage.
RS: Wow.
TM: How expensive is that going to be?
JB: I have no idea.
TM: And does it depend on your flood zone too? So people like right along the coast, or that are at sea level or below it… Are their rates gonna be much higher than someone who’s further in?
JB: Well that’s why they started with what they call SFHA zones, special flood hazard area or something like that. Don’t quote me, but it’s close enough.
TM: Yeah.
JB: Those zones were first.
TM: Yeah. Okay.
JB: You must have, again, from their perspective, I get it, it makes sense. It’s just making housing that much less affordable.
TM: Yeah.
JB: Right.
TM: Yeah.
JB: My, my own son got married early last year and they were looking for a house, and so they started, they got an agent and they started looking and he’d send me pictures and I’d get it on my phone and you know the cringe like, God, you know.
TM: Not that one.
JB: I was the worst dad. I was that stereotypical dad on a home inspection.
RS: Oh, for sure.
JB: Right?
RS: Yeah.
JB: But that was totally me. But anyway, it was on the phone and anything in his price range was just awful.
RS: Yeah.
JB: Right. Prices are, homes are up. It’s a seller’s market. Their budget was low and he just had no choice.
TM: Ugh. Yeah.
JB: The good thing is we have the very first house my wife and I ever bought, we still own. And right at that time the tenant moved out and we moved him right in there. So it helped him. It helped us. We are gonna sell it to him eventually as he… They’re very young, they’re in the very beginning of their professional careers and stuff. So that was actually a blessing. Thank you Lord.
TM: That worked out. What’s the… What would you say is kind of the the price point for a first time home buyer down in Florida? I guess it depends on what area in Florida, but in some of the bigger cities, what would you say? Minimum budget requirements for buying a decent house.
JB: Yeah. You’re… Anything under three is gonna be a little bit rough.
TM: Yeah.
JB: Right. I don’t remember. I used to watch the median prices and all that stuff. It’s a better question for a real estate agent, but I want to say somewhere in that range.
TM: Yeah. And then you tack on the insurance and I mean, yeah.
JB: Right.
RS: Yeah. It cuts into what you can afford.
TM: Right.
JB: Yeah. On the Citizens air quotes report four-point report, it states on there that it shall be a home, a licensed home inspector. Now there’s other people that can do it, like architects and engineers, that kind of thing. It puts it on there. So because that costs money to hire an inspector. And boy, you wanna start a fight on Facebook. It’s hilarious to talk about people find out that there’s somebody in their area doing four-points for 65 bucks and people just lose their mind. You could see their heads explode. Oh my gosh, you’re so cheap. You don’t know your value. All, on and on and on and on. But people trying to survive too. It’s tough. When the number of transactions is down, everybody’s gotta eat. So it’s driving… The competition is driving the price down on some of these things. So there’s a lot of people doing ’em for 65, 75, 85 bucks.
RS: What do you charge?
JB: That’s a good question. I’m not in that game anymore.
RS: Okay.
JB: But we would do… I think we would do the wind mit four-point combo for 185. But again, don’t quote me, it’s been a little while.
TM: Yeah.
JB: In Florida high, 90% of our, the transactions are getting wind mits and four-points. Of course, wind mitigations are, there’s certain features of your structure of your house that make it more resistant to wind damage in high wind events. How the sheathing is attached to the trusses, how the trusses are attached to the house, those type of things. They’re… They used to have, how the gable ends were braced.
TM: Bracing. Yeah.
JB: Yeah. We used to have to measure rebar in the corners of the house. It’s gotten a little bit better, a little bit easier, but I’m going off on a tangent. The vast majority of inspections are getting the wind mit and four-point. Okay. As required by their lenders and mortgage people that, or insurers, that kind of thing. In the back in the day, it used to be like a hardened running rule. 20 years and older, you had to have the four-point. Now we’ve done them on four years, two years. Some of ’em want one of ’em on a new home.
RS: Got it.
JB: Yeah, I’ll do that all day long. That’s easy.
RS: Okay.
JB: How old? One?
RS: Now for these four-point inspections, we’re doing four-point wind mits, you’re doing those along with your traditional home inspection, correct?
JB: Correct. Since the inspector’s already there.
RS: Yeah.
JB: He’s already crawling in the attic. And that’s where you spend most of your time on the four-points is in the attic.
RS: Yeah.
JB: Or I’m sorry, on the wind mits in the attic. Do those. But you’re already inspecting all these items and you’re transferring some information from one form to another, basically.
RS: Now what if you were called out to just do the four-point? Do you ever do four-points by themselves?
JB: That, that’s actually a funny story. Before it got really nuts several years ago, we would turn all of the wind mits and four-points down.
RS: Okay.
JB: Because it’s a lower price point, I still have to take a slot. It’s not, even though it’s a shorter inspection, I still am taking a person out of the field that would be doing a 5, 6, 7, $800 inspection for a big house to go throw ’em on this $185 thing. So we used to turn all of them down. Nowadays, I remember mentioned they’re gonna be doing up to 350,000 of these things a year. So now you can’t turn ’em down anymore. There’s just way too many. So we’ve gotten back in the game, but we would turn ’em all down and I had certain people I’d send them to and they would get inundated with all these win mits and four-points, and they couldn’t go out and do the 5, 6, 7, $800 inspections. So they were busting their butt and they weren’t making any money. So several years ago it was almost a business strategy. But yeah, we do a lot of them now.
TM: You see this in the future, Jon, like these four point inspections and wind inspections, all these other things that the insurance companies are requiring, they’re becoming more and more detailed. Just edging out your standard home inspection that you’re offering, and home buyers too won’t have the money to pay for all these inspections. They’re like, well, I’m already getting these and these seem pretty detailed. Why would I spend another 800 bucks on a standard home inspection?
JB: Man, that is a very, very good point. You bring up Ms. Tessa. There are some people, and sometimes they are coached by their agents because of their budget constraints, because of the market, all this kind of stuff. Hey, don’t spend $500 for a home inspection, just go get this four-point thing and that’s all they get. And it, there’s a… As you guys know, there’s a huge difference in a limited thing and a full on thing.
TM: Yeah.
JB: So they go into this with some false, under false pretense basically. And we don’t go to the extent that we would on a full home inspection. Okay.
TM: Yeah.
JB: Even though it seems like, well, gosh, there’s so much even on the electrical system, it gives us all these things that we check off now and like, these are legit, are they blowing fuses, tripping breakers, empty sockets, loose wiring. They have this list of stuff, and down at the bottom, you know what the last one is.
RS: Anything else?
JB: Amen. Anything else? You’re like, oh my gosh. Okay, so here I am. If I’m doing a limited four-point only, do I have to crawl through the attic? Well, what if there’s some old aluminum wiring that’s still in use or Clough wiring or rodent damages? Or a number of things that you might find up there. An open junction box. How many houses? Tons and tons of houses with an open junction box. Okay. Well what happens if the house burns down and they investigate and they’re going, ooh, you had this, wait, you had a home inspection? You guys know how the whole justice system works. Like everybody assumes some percent of responsibility, so what percent is gonna be ours?
TM: Yeah.
JB: I don’t know.
RS: Yeah. So you’ve never had that happen to you before? You’ve never had a claim come back to you from a four-point inspection?
JB: Thank God, no. Nothing bad. Just that they want more information.
RS: Okay.
JB: You know?
TM: Yeah.
JB: They want more pictures.
RS: So if you…
TM: Well, do you err on the site of caution though, and you check that other box on almost every house just to cover your butt then?
JB: Well, yeah. And so here you are, you’re… You put these things in the report and somebody might not get insurance. So I don’t want to say that you observe this thing and ignore that thing. I’m not saying that, but sometimes yeah, you gotta… I hate for somebody not to be able to buy a house because they can’t get insurance because they have something stupid like you’re missing a receptacle cover.
RS: Yeah.
TM: Yeah.
JB: Okay. It’s a 27 cent fix and they’re… I trust that they’re gonna do that. Okay.
TM: Yeah.
JB: So that’s an easy example. But what about everything else in between the major stuff and missing a receptacle cover? Where do you draw the line? I don’t know.
RS: Yeah.
JB: So you have…
TM: That’s a tough.
JB: Some personal decisions there.
TM: Yeah.
RS: And Jon, I wanted to ask you, how, how long do you guys spend, if you’re doing just the four-point, how long does that take you?
JB: Obviously it depends on how big and how old the house is what kind of features they have. If they’ve got say, an FPE panel, well, that was easy. No further investigation required. You just check your box and you write good luck getting insurance. Sometimes you gotta take it a little, it takes a little longer to go through there, but you’re gonna be anywhere from say like a really super, super newer, cleaner house, no issues 45 minutes to an hour and a half on something worse or older.
RS: Okay.
JB: It really depends. But yes, back to that original thing Tessa brought up, people are going to opt for that because it’s less expensive.
TM: Yeah.
JB: And you just… So in other words, as a business owner, you’ve got to come up with a way to disclose, hey, listen, this is limited. I’m limiting my liability. And however you project that. However you put that in your service agreement or whatever it is you gotta think about these things just in case they wanna come back on you later.
TM: Yeah.
RS: Sure. And then now that you’re doing a bunch of them freestanding by themselves, are you charging more for those or are you guys still charging around 185, 200 bucks, something like that?
JB: Yeah, I do believe they charge a little bit more for a standalone.
RS: Okay.
JB: Not a whole lot. And again, there’s so much competition now we have almost 18,000 license inspectors in Florida, give or take half are active. So that’s a lot of inspectors and they all, everybody’s hungry right now. Just number of transactions is down, so everybody’s taking. So there’s competition and you may have to lower your price if you want to… You want that business just to get it.
TM: You know what, these four-point inspections remind me of? They… What they’ve grown into today, how you’re describing them, Jon, is our truth in sale housing inspections that the cities require certain cities and the Twin Cities require that a house be inspected before time of sale and they’ve got different requirements based on the city on what you have to fix or what’s a safety issue, that sort of thing. But a home inspector has to get certified to do that. And then they go through the house and they kind of check these boxes and it’s not like… It’s not just looking at a couple things. It’s, there’s quite a… There’s a long checklist but it’s a much shorter, abbreviated version of what a standard home inspection would be with like a company like Structure Tech.
TM: So you run across a lot of uneducated home buyers and they think, well, I already had an inspection, and then I ask for the report and they show me that truth in sale housing inspection report. And it’s pretty basic. And it tells me that the head height is low on the stairway of a house built in 1920 and it’s missing backflow preventers on outside faucets and that sort of thing, but it’s not talking about anything that’s really important. So then you have to kind of educate them on, okay, well here’s what a full home inspection would tell you and the information you should be getting too. But I don’t know, do you have anything like that in Florida?
JB: The truth in housing stuff? No. Wind mits and four-points is our big thing.
TM: Yep. Okay.
JB: Something you need to tell, but you have similar experience. So you need to tell your clients if they’re getting these four-points and the insurance asks for certain information. Don’t turn anything in, but that four-point nothing, don’t elaborate on that.
TM: Don’t give ’em additional information. Yeah.
JB: Exactly what they ask and nothing more. We’ve had several people send in, whether it was intentional or by mistake, send in their full inspection and then they can’t get insurance. I had one of them, Alan Lucas’s client who they had their grill close to the house, wood frame with vinyl and it warped. The heat warped it.
TM: Melted the siding. Yeah.
JB: Yeah. And all of the sudden they couldn’t get insurance because of that. Yeah. Seriously.
RS: Wow.
JB: So do not let them see, they will find something in there, to deny coverage.
RS: Sure, sure. And something that’s interesting, big contrast here is for, for truth in housing, we have a very clear set of guidelines given by every city, and we have a very clear form and we know exactly what to put on there. And it sounds like, Jon, for your four-points in your area, you have the with the Citizens form says everything you need to look at and how to rate it and all that. Now in Minnesota, what, what do we have Eric? What, what are the insurance companies requiring of us for our standard four-point form?
EH: That’s a great question, Reuben. If you could find someone that could answer that for me, I would love to talk to them on the phone.
RS: Thought that’s what your answer would be.
TM: Yeah. And probably depends on the insurance company.
EH: Sure. And well, maybe, maybe not. So I’ll give you again, kind of history and backstory of this entire situation that I’ve encountered there. There is one of the standalone four-point inspections that I’ve done. There’s one insurance company. While I haven’t had a conversation with them, everything that I have ever given to them has been instantaneously approved. I haven’t gotten any blowback, any questions, anything like that. And I don’t know, I mean, can I name said insurance company? Is that…
TM: Please.
EH: Uncouth I don’t know. Travelers’.
RS: Okay. Too late.
EH: Yeah. I mean, but I mean, good on them because they seem to be the ones that are kind of active participants in this entire situation. And while I haven’t been able to talk to anyone there, I also haven’t sought them out, so to speak. But I mean, when we were first doing this, Reuben, you and I went out on the first few together. And initially, when we were developing the template and putting all this stuff in there one of the things that we had talked about was kind of changing our ratings on things versus our home inspection report. So to go back to what Jon was saying before about like, okay, where where does a missing cover plate rank in all of this? In our full home inspection report? It’s a mid-grade attention item. Hey, put a cover plate on this outlet. It’s a safety concern. Somebody can shove their fingers in there on our four-point. It’s a low level maintenance and information item. Something that I would look at and go, this isn’t going to prevent you from getting insurance. At least that’s the way I look at it up here, because I haven’t been able to talk to really any companies to get an idea of what it is that they’re looking for. So this is very…
TM: Interesting.
EH: Very…
TM: The insurance companies haven’t.
EH: Very infantile stage.
TM: Yeah.
RS: Yeah.
TM: They’re not to the same point that they’re at with Floridians, it sounds like.
EH: No.
JB: I tell you one thing though, that you will likely experience, and you may be experiencing that with the truth in housing stuff, let me know. But you’re probably gonna start getting pressure from agents and now all of a sudden you have strained relationships. You may have been good friends for years and years and years, and they got somebody, they wanna close a deal, but your four-point is holding it up. So what do you do? That’s what I’m saying. Do I put that missing receptacle cover on a four-point?
JB: I should be. If I follow the letter of the law, will I? Probably not. But there’ll be some things where your hands are tied and you have to put it, and they’re like, Eric, come on man. Gimme a break. I promise we’re gonna fix it. Okay. So you’re saying, I swear on your license that we’re gonna fix this, we’ll thanks a lot. You know what I mean?
EH: Yeah.
TM: Yeah.
JB: So there’s gonna need to be some really good communication with agents saying, look, I didn’t create this form. I’m filling in the blanks and it’s required of me to fill this in and say, you have this, you don’t have that. I saw something.
RS: Well, now it makes me think of a service that we offer in Minneapolis, because in Minneapolis, when you get your truth in housing evaluation, if you have required repair items, they need to be reinspected. And a number of them might need a permit where the city’s gotta come out and inspect it. Some of them don’t need permits. And the original evaluator, we can go back out and reinspect it. Some of them might be a safety check where you need to get a licensed heating contractor to come in and do a safety check on the furnace. A lot of people don’t like dealing with all of the red tape. So what we frequently do in Minneapolis is something called a pre-inspection, where we basically, we do the whole truth in housing evaluation as is. And we say, all right, here’s the stuff you gotta fix.
RS: Do you want the report or do you want the repair list? Which one do you want today? And if you just want the repair list, we’ll give you the repair list. It’s the same price there. There’s no difference. It’s no more work for us to, it’s one form or another form we give them. And if they want the repair list, here’s the list. And then when they get everything fixed, they have us come back out a week later or whatever it is, and we verify it’s done. If it’s really simple install a smoke alarm here and put a backflow preventer on your faucet, we’ll be like, hey, take a picture of it. Give me some perspective photos. Send it over to me and we’re good. I don’t wanna come back out to your house and charge you whatever we charge.
RS: I don’t even remember off the top of my head. It’s like, that is a lot of money for someone to glance at this stuff. In good conscience, we don’t wanna charge that. We’ll just take photos. We’re happy with that. So we do a lot of those pre-inspections, and it’s not like we’re skirting any rules. The City of Minneapolis list this as an option. They say you can do a pre-inspection, and we’re cool with that. It’s less red tape. I wonder, could you ever, or have you ever done such a thing with these four-point inspections?
JB: Oh my God. That’s a really good topic, because, all I can think of when you’re saying that is you write something up on a four-point, and then you have… They need a clear one. So you go back, to do this re-inspection, and just like you said, Reuben, if it’s something stupid, send me a picture. I’m good. Sometimes we might be able to get away with, okay, send me the paid receipt. Not a guesstimate, give me the paid receipt from a licensed guy that says he fixed it. Okay. On certain situations, I’m good with that. And that’s probably not exactly legal, but again… [laughter] Okay, so what do you do then if you go back out and you said something about the furnace is bad and you get there and it’s wrapped in a roll of duct tape and you’re going, well, this wasn’t, this was no tech. Like this was probably the homeowner. Now what do you do? Do you say it’s been repaired? Is it functioning as intended? Is it safe? You don’t know anymore now. Now what do you do?
TM: Gray area?
RS: Yes.
TM: Yeah.
RS: Yes.
TM: Well, and it sounds like too, a lot of these insurance companies are kind of almost making it impossible for older homes with older systems to get insured. So it’s like, you gotta replace your roof, you gotta replace your electrical panel, you gotta re-plumb everything. It’s like, it’s not just going out and putting a cover plate on or a backflow preventer on. It’s like replacing systems. And so at some point, do you think the housing stock in Florida, it’s like you won’t even need a four-point. It’s like every house is just gonna have a roof that’s less than five years old and a electrical panel that’s less than 20 years old. And I mean, otherwise, you can’t sell it and you can’t get insurance.
JB: Right. Exactly. And I have you guys know, I do classes all over the country too, and I get people laugh, think I’m crazy. Our definition of an old home was 1950. Okay. In a lot of areas of the country that’s like, wow, that’s pretty new. So we have, that’s our old housing stock. So it’s easier for Florida to bring things up. Back in the day, in the beginning of my career you’d find knob and tube on a fairly regular basis. Nowadays you don’t see it anymore. Hardly ever.
TM: Wow.
JB: It’s all gone. Like over time it’s all been replaced. Oh, I was on another roll there. I was about to throw a, a hook. I forgot where we’re at…
TM: We’ll come back to you. You don’t have a lot of really old systems then. I mean, ’cause the oldest houses that you get are 70 years old at the most.
JB: Right. And we some of the products we have… Here’s the prime example. I’ve talked to other people in other… Inspectors in other states. Somebody’s got copper that’s 40 years old. Well, you’re at the end of its life here and it’s gonna be difficult to get insurance. And then some of you guys living up in the northeast and stuff are like, my God, all of our houses are like that. Well, yeah, that’s how we are. If you haven’t had it yet, PEX is the next poly, and we have already… I’ve been preaching this and we have already had some insurance companies that won’t cover it or they only cover newer PEX, but it, again, it can’t get better. PEX is a polyolefin-based plastic, just like Polybutylene, so it deteriorates from the inside out. So there’s issues with the pipe, issues with the fittings, all kinds of stuff going on with that. And insurance companies are catching on. So it’s another thing. We have had people call, when this was a newer issue, it’s still a new issue, air quotes, but when it was new, even newer, hey, you said I have PEX now I’m having an insurance issue. Why didn’t you tell me? Like, yeah, well read your report. ’cause we have always had something in there about PEX. It is what it is, but, I.
RS: Well, I hope that that’s just a regional thing for you because I have never… I have not heard of any problems with PEX in my area and I always tell people it’s a great product, so I hope you’re just dead wrong. And it’s only a Florida problem, Jon [laughter]
TM: Well, your PEX is, a lot of times people run that plumbing through their attic space and your attics get super hot and humid a lot of times. So that PEX is going through those different extremes and in temperature and it… I can’t imagine that plastic sitting in like 120 degree heat year round is gonna have the lifespan that would have if it was sitting in a 70 degree…
JB: Oh, for sure.
TM: Environment.
JB: For sure. It accelerates…
TM: Deterioration.
JB: Degradation processes like chlorine degradation and oxidation and, yeah, there’s stuff with chemical permeation that’s like, it goes on and on and on. I know that’s not what we’re talking about, but it’s, again, it’s something else on the four-point form under plumbing. It has a, sorry, it has a space here for PEX. Let me pull it up. What type of pipes. Check all that apply copper, PVC, CPVC, galvanized, PEX, polybutylene and other in case there’s something else. So, yep. That’s something else that’s coming your way. And you know something mind blowing too. I was… I stumbled upon, and you’ll no doubt you’ll have a consumer stumble upon this stuff too, because everybody’s heard of Rocket Mortgage before.
TM: Yeah.
JB: Okay. Even way up there in the Great White North. You’ve heard of it. These are some quotes I pulled straight off of their website, so feel free to fact check me. Rocket Mortgage website says, they come right out and they say they… It was an article about four-points and they said insurance companies may be more selective about providing coverage to homes over four years old because they’re more likely to need costly repairs. Four. F-O-U-R.
RS: Four years.
JB: Yes.
TM: Over four years.
JB: Correct. They talk about some of the benefits of these four-point inspections. Quote, they guarantee the condition of your real estate.
EH: Oh, what.
JB: Eric? That quote, I’m telling you, I copied pasted for this so I didn’t misquote this at all. Listen, listen to this. When a licensed inspector visits a home to conduct a four-point inspection, they examine the following systems and they go on to explain. HVAC. A homeowner has an appropriate, this is what you’re supposed to report on as inspector. The AC system is appropriately sized, fully functioning, heating and cooling units installed.
RS: Jaws on the floor right now from all, all three of us.
TM: A little beyond the…
RS: Appropriately sized.
JB: Appropriately sized and functioning cooling and heating.
TM: It’s beyond the scope of a standard home inspector.
JB: So what do you guys do when it’s zero degrees outside?
EH: Oh, I check to make sure that the AC is appropriately sized, Jon. [laughter]
JB: But wait there’s more.
TM: Start doing the manual [0:54:18.3] ____. Yeah. Oh my God.
JB: For electrical. Oh my God. Okay. Wait, your jaw hit the floor. Yeah, don’t stand up ’cause you’re gonna fall over. Listen to this. Under electrical. Okay. Homes, you’re paying attention, right? Homes with aluminum knob and tube and copper wiring present increased fire hazard risks and are commonly uninsurable.
EH: Copper.
TM: And copper.
EH: What’s left?
[overlapping conversation]
EH: What’s left?
JB: I was hoping you guys could tell me because I don’t know.
TM: Magic.
RS: Magnesium, magnesium. I think that’s what we need. I…
EH: Candles.
JB: What?
EH: We’re going back to the 1800s.
RS: Open flames was much safer. [laughter]
EH: Oh yeah, right. Sorry. Forgot about that.
JB: Yeah.
TM: That’s wild.
JB: And there’s more, it says, when an inspector examines your electrical system, they want to ensure everything meets code regulations. Quotes.
TM: Oh, ouch. That hurts. That hurts. [laughter]
RS: Who’s writing this?
JB: This, this came from Rocket Mortgage. Look it up.
EH: Wow.
JB: Feel free.
EH: Okay.
TM: Yikes.
JB: Plumbing, the inspector will examine pipes to gauge their likelihood of bursting, which could lead to water damage. They’ll also likely, or they’ll also look at the water heater, ensuring it effectively distributes water throughout the home.
TM: Oh. So I think home inspectors have superpowers now [laughter] listening to this.
JB: Right?
RS: This is just nonsense. Jon.
TM: Talk about misinformation. Man.
JB: That whole electrical thing. Aluminum copper knob and tube. It was, I also found it in something called broker in insurance that came up top of the search. If a home has copper, aluminum or knob and tube wires, it is unlikely to be insured because of the risk of fire.
EH: They really don’t wanna insure anything, do they?
TM: Maybe this is coming from Citizens.
[laughter]
RS: Yeah, exactly.
JB: So back to Citizens. Okay. I remember I started on the pathway on the Citizens form. It says, shall be done by a couple of these people including a licensed home inspector. Well, Citizens are doing all these inspections and they’re hiring their own people. They’re not calling them four-point inspections, they’re property condition or some kind of field survey, whatever. They’re calling it something different.
TM: Yikes.
JB: So because their own form says license home inspector. So they’re sending these people out and they appeared to be less informed than most home inspectors. Okay. They make them free to the policy holder. Wow. Very appealing.
RS: Yeah, it’s great.
JB: Wait a minute, wait a minute. I can get one of these inspectors for free. Absolutely. They’re conducted by these third-party professional field survey companies, there are several companies, just like they did with the wind mits, if you have… Thank God, there are people that have these skill sets that can mobilize inspectors all over the country, and they have forms and systems, and they can do that, you can be multiple different companies and that kind of thing, and… They kind of coordinate it all. So they’re using companies to do that, and they’ve got people going out looking at houses, and there was an article that I read, and I have the picture, if we’re looking at ourselves straight on eye to eye…
JB: So to take a picture of the front the inspector moves way over to the side and takes the picture from an angle, because the tree way over here, it made it look like in the neighbor’s yard, made it look like it was hanging over the client’s house. So when you got over back in front, you could see that it wasn’t over the house, but they took that picture…
TM: The perspective.
JB: That perspective, and that person Debra something… It was in the article, I forget, she couldn’t get insurance.
EH: So why would we do that?
TM: Oh my goodness.
RS: Just ’cause they don’t wanna ensure to the house?
JB: Could be. Speculating.
TM: Wow.
JB: One thing I wanted to remember to tell you guys because you’ll start to get some pushback, we talked about pushback from maybe agents and stuff like that, but you’re gonna get it from consumers as well, and especially sellers. Hey, it’s been there for five, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 years, and we’ve never had a problem.
RS: Sure.
JB: You are the deal killer, you’re the one that’s holding this up, you made me lose my sale. It’s your fault. That’s going to happen.
RS: Yep.
JB: All right, so it wasn’t my fault that I showed up and there’s a Zinsco panel and they’ve been living there for 55 years, and they have never had a… Okay, you may not have… So one thing I would say is, when you get that pushback, we tell them that I understand where you’re coming from, and you can come off with some technical rebuttals and not even necessary. I say, I totally understand where you’re coming from. I’m just filling out the form. And somebody moving in, initiating a brand new policy, this is probably gonna be an issue, it wasn’t in the past, I understand you’ve been here for a long time, but today now it’s an issue. So it’s not me, it’s the insurance companies and it ain’t lying that’s the truth.
TM: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s a tough time to be buying a house in Florida. Well, and I think the rest of the United States too, especially with all the recent storm damage with Helene and everything else that’s going on in the country, as Reuben, you always say there’s no such thing as a free lunch. So insurance is changing a lot of things for a lot of people.
RS: Yeah, someone’s paying for it.
JB: I think one opportunity it might open is, if this happens to you guys and it comes down to they’re using somebody that is less educated that just doesn’t know, and you have so many great relationships, ’cause you guys have been around forever, where you can help agents out and go do a follow-up, maybe if you do ’em super cheap or even pro bono type of thing, let me just go look at this thing that came out on your report, and sometimes you look at it and it’s just totally false. And you might be able to help out, and that’s showing some really, really good will.
RS: Sure.
JB: That’s really to your favorite and agents and let them know, hey, you guys, you’re gonna get as much pressure as we are with these things, and we’ve got your back, we’re here to help you. If you want us to come out and take a look, because they said something. One of our own inspectors selling his house, and they had the guy come over to do this inspection and he says that house has Clough wiring. And I was like, come on. Wait a minute when was your house built? He said, ’77, I go, You don’t have Clough wiring. He goes I know, he goes, Look, and I have the picture, I can show you the picture. It’s a vine growing up into the panel. It’s a damn grown brown vine. I swear to God.
TM: Oh my gosh.
RS: Oh my goodness. Wow.
JB: Yeah, there are some people out there that they may not be well trained. Okay. Maybe you can help. That same inspection, there’s dryer lint behind the dryer stuck to the wall, and he took a picture of it and said, mold… Of course, can’t get insurance. A buyer can’t close, buyer can’t buy his house.
TM: Oh my gosh.
JB: Fortunately something like that, he just pull the vine out and he wipe the dust off there and sent the pictures and he was okay, but my point is, that’s a ridiculous level, how many of them are half right?
RS: Sure, sure.
TM: Yeah. Yep, that’s a great advice, Jon.
RS: Yeah, well this is eye-opening, Jon, I appreciate it. I appreciate all your stories, all of your insight and…
TM: And scary.
RS: Yeah, yeah. And I’m interested to see where this is going to Minnesota. I think the number of these is only gonna increase, we’re gonna start doing a lot of these really soon, it sounds like. And I hope that…
TM: And our housing stock is so much older too.
RS: Yeah. Yeah, it is.
JB: But you’re also different, you guys have old copper plumbing systems and it’s not a big deal.
RS: Yeah.
TM: Usually they’re mixed in with some other things, but yeah.
RS: Cool, well, Jon, can’t thank you enough for all your time coming on the show, always a delight to hear from you.
JB: Dude anytime.
RS: I can’t wait to see you get in person next time. It’s been too long, Jon.
JB: Mens retreat.
RS: Let me know about it.
JB: All right I’m going.
RS: All right.
TM: Thanks, Jon.
RS: Cool.
TM: It’s so great to have you on again. Just wealth of knowledge.
RS: Yeah.
JB: We’re just having fun.
RS: For any of the listeners out there, if you’ve got thoughts questions, please don’t hesitate to be out to us.
TM: And Eric, shot out to Eric you’ve been muted the rest of this podcast ’cause of your background noise, thank you, Eric, for your insights as well.
EH: You’re welcome. I don’t have nearly as much to share as Jon does, but.
TM: We’re in the baby stages of this. Yeah.
TM: What did you call it Jon? You called it Minnelorida, Mini Lorda?
JB: You’re welcome to… I was crossing Minnesota and Florida and got Minnelorida. Welcome to Minnelorida.
TM: Minnelorida.
RS: Yeah that’s about where our insurance is at right now we’re getting there.
JB: Getting there.
TM: Well we’re heading in with eyes widen open, so thank you, both of you guys.
JB: Good luck, y’all awesome to see everyone again.
RS: Appreciate you.
EH: See you John.
RS: All right take care.
JB: Later.