To watch a video version of this podcast, click here: https://youtu.be/4LmP_3WOezg
In this episode, Reuben Saltzman and Tessa Murry welcome Noah Gavik from Brothers Underground to discuss the impact of private equity on the home service industry. They explore the benefits, challenges, and ethical considerations of private equity ownership, as well as how it influences business operations, customer relationships, and overall market dynamics.
Here’s the link to Inspector Empire Builder: https://www.iebcoaching.com/events
Takeaways
Private equity (PE) buys service companies to generate higher, faster returns than traditional investments.
PE ownership typically brings major operational changes—software, compensation, insurance, branding, and company culture.
Large PE-backed companies can outspend small businesses on marketing (especially Google ads), pushing independents down in search visibility.
Consolidation can create near‑monopolies in some markets, reducing consumer choice and increasing prices.
Strong profit pressure often leads to aggressive or ethically questionable upselling, shifting focus away from true customer needs.
Big roll‑ups can erode the personal relationships customers value, causing long‑time employees and clients to leave.
PE-owned firms heavily emphasize metrics—conversion rates, revenue per call, average ticket—sometimes at the expense of service quality.
Smaller companies win through trust, direct communication, craftsmanship, and community‑based referrals rather than high‑pressure sales.
Huge review counts can hide negative experiences; fewer but consistent 5‑star reviews from smaller companies often reflect better service.
Consumers should rely on referrals (inspectors, tradespeople, neighbors, realtors) instead of only choosing the top sponsored Google results.
Selling to PE isn’t inherently bad, but owners must understand PE’s goals and be prepared for major cultural and operational changes.
When interest rates rise and profits tighten, PE buying slows—but consolidation continues long-term.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
02:15 Understanding Private Equity
05:01 The Mechanics of Private Equity
07:33 The Impact of Private Equity on the Market
11:03 The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly of Private Equity
17:58 Navigating Changes Post-Acquisition
22:09 Personal Perspectives on Selling to Private Equity
26:11 The Power of Referrals in Service Industries
28:32 Private Equity’s Impact on Business Operations
31:13 Sales Techniques and Customer Education
33:02 Ethics vs. Profit in Business
36:01 The Future of Small Businesses in a PE-Dominated Market
37:43 Balancing Profitability with Customer Relationships
41:16 Ethics in Sales and Customer Service
44:01 Navigating the PE Landscape for Business Owners
48:26 Building a Reliable Network for Service Providers
TRANSCRIPTION
The following is an AI-generated transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is mostly accurate, it will contain some errors due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Reuben Saltzman: Welcome to my house. Welcome to the Structure Talk podcast, a production of Structure Tech Home Inspections. My name is Reuben Saltzman. I’m your host alongside building science geek, Tessa Murry. We help home inspectors up their game through education, and we help homeowners to be better stewards of their houses. We’ve been keeping it real on this podcast since 2019, and we are also the number one home inspection podcast in the world, according to my mom.
Reuben Saltzman (00:01.43)
Welcome back to the show. is the Structure Talk podcast. I’m here with Tessa and well first Tessa, how you doing today? How’s sunny Florida?
Tessa Murry (00:10.221)
Hey Ruben. Good. Can’t complain. This is the one time a year where I think it’s tolerable to be outside. So I’m enjoying it.
Reuben Saltzman (00:16.216)
okay. Congratulations. Nice. We’ve got repeat guest on the show today. We got Noah Gavik on with Brothers Underground. had Noah on a couple of times about a year ago, almost a year ago now. Noah, welcome to the show. How are doing today? Yeah, we’re gonna, we’re gonna see 45 degrees today in Minnesota. So we got nothing to complain about. It’s a balmy 45.
Noah Gavic (00:33.779)
I’m doing good. I’m not as warm as Tessa, but I’m staying in there.
Noah Gavic (00:43.661)
Hey, isn’t it?
Tessa Murry (00:43.717)
I’m going to say about people are out in their shorts and t-shirts probably. Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (00:46.872)
Pretty much, pretty much. That’s right. So we got a good topic we have never touched on today, but before we get into it, I wanna give a shout out to our show sponsors, IEB, Inspector Empire Builder. And today we’re talking about the big shift happening in the inspection industry. it seems that there’s a gap between inspectors who are operating as solo technicians and the other people who are building
Noah Gavic (00:47.758)
It’s balmy up here.
Reuben Saltzman (01:17.41)
true businesses and it’s widening quickly. And AI tools, CRM systems, marketing automation, hiring models, leadership development, these are all the things that are kind of separating companies from staying small to those who are doing this at scale. And that’s kind of the big conversation that we’re having at IEB right now. And it’s about who’s building systems, who’s developing in leadership skills.
and who’s thinking three to five years ahead instead of three to five weeks ahead. So that’s the stuff we’re talking about at Inspector Empire Builder right now. If you want more information about IEB, click on the link. We will have it in the show notes. So thank you, IEB. Love you guys. And now when it comes to NOAA, NOAA, like I said, we got a new topic we have not dug into. And this one is all about private equity. It’s something that
I’ve been hearing about a lot for the last, I want to say probably three years or so, maybe, maybe it’s more, maybe it’s less, but something like that. I’ve been hearing a lot about it in the home inspection profession where there’s larger home inspection companies getting bought out by private equity. And then it’s like, you got this person and this person and this person, and they’re all in different States. And all of sudden now they’re kind of under the same umbrella and they’re sharing all the ideas with each other.
And things change dramatically once people go to private equity. I, you know, I, I don’t have any personal experience with it. I’ve just heard this from other home inspection company owners, but Noah and I, Noah and I were chatting the other day and he said, this might be a fun podcast topic to get into. So Noah, take it away. but, but first off, for anybody who didn’t listen to the previous shows,
where we got into kind of who you are. If you would just go back a little bit, share a little bit about your background, what you do today and what you got, what got you here today.
Noah Gavic (03:24.078)
Sure. Yeah. So as brothers underground, we’ve been running for about three years now by ourselves. Prior to that point, I used to work for my dad. He had a bigger plumbing shop around town here. And that’s a little bit what we’ll talk about today too. But I have been doing it for, let’s see, 22 years now. I think it’s roughly 22 years doing drain, sewer, water, cleaning, know, repair. Grew up, my dad was a master plumber.
worked under him. I used to be homeschooled when I was a kid. So I’d grow up, go out after I got my homework done and we go install a water heater at this house or go fix this over here. And so that’s kind of where it took off from is just learning the plumbing side. But then it eventually morphed into the sewer and water repair side and everybody’s like, it’s kind of icky to touch and you know, smell. And yeah, there are days where it’s not great. But at the end of the day, usually most of the work you’re doing, you know, it’s pretty clean. And
Tessa Murry (04:02.34)
Thank
Noah Gavic (04:23.79)
you you find ways to make sure you don’t get all messy. But every once in a while you end up with that extra stuff on you that you don’t know where it came from or what it is. So.
Reuben Saltzman (04:25.852)
Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (04:35.12)
Yep, yep, I can only imagine. So what do we want to cover when it comes to private equity?
Tessa Murry (04:37.892)
Good.
Noah Gavic (04:43.0)
So yeah, I I figured we talked a little bit about the good, the bad, and the ugly on that. know, pee is not necessarily a bad thing.
Reuben Saltzman (04:52.408)
And if you would, before we even say PE, explain what this is, because I’ll tell you, three years ago, I would have been like, I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Noah Gavic (05:05.038)
Sure, so P is basically private equity. So private equity is not a publicly backed company. So you’re not gonna find them on the S &P or any of the trading platforms you’re gonna have stock. These are all companies that have investors that basically have deep pockets and those deep pocket investors have this group of guys. Usually there’s three, four people on this team.
that are looking to buy up other companies. So they’re buying them usually on a, not usually a full basis on it. So when I say full, typically on a PE group, you can either sell to a PE group with, you know, you can sell the whole company, but a lot of people, a lot of companies that are a lot of PE groups, they wanna buy you, but they still want you to be part of the company. They wanna continue to have you run the company for a period of time, even though there will be some changes in there.
just to make a smooth transition over. So when they go ahead and take over for the company full term, that they have all these things iron out. The other aspect too, is a lot of people when they sell. take for example, my dad, he sold to PE group. The ownership group, he was part of a group of owners that worked together and they ended up with about 40 % share of the company as the ownership group. And 60 % of that was
was sold to the PE group. So they own the control and interest. And most PE groups are gonna have a minimum of 51 % control, they want the control and interest in that company. They’re usually gonna buy for less than that. And so they’re buying up, they’re taking all this extra wealth and buying it up because the returns on these company at this moment are higher than what they’re getting in say the stock market or any of those other things.
Reuben Saltzman (06:40.128)
Okay.
Noah Gavic (06:57.07)
especially when the interest rates start to drop and they can’t borrow money and make money off of their money, they look for other alternatives. And so because the interest rates were so low for so long period, a lot of those PE groups, they started going, well, how else are we gonna make money on our money? And so they started going, okay, here’s investors, we can buy these up, build these up. And the biggest thing with the PE group is they buy lots of different companies. They might buy multiple companies in one area, they might.
diversify and buy one big in one area and try to, it depends on their type of plan and how they wanna go ahead and do it. But at the end of the day, they’re gonna roll up. Go ahead, Ruben.
Reuben Saltzman (07:37.476)
Well, all right. Maybe you’re going to get to this, but I just thought, do PE companies ever try to buy up all the companies in the area and create a monopoly?
Noah Gavic (07:50.188)
Well, and that is something too to be said. And there are companies here, I mean there are PE groups here in Minnesota that are buying up a good chunk of, I would say the majority of the major home service companies are seen that are either on billboards or on TV. They’re already PE owned, partially or fully. There’s very few that still don’t have PE involved in them.
Reuben Saltzman (07:57.464)
Okay, can you name some or do you not want to go there?
Noah Gavic (08:17.973)
And that’s the interesting aspect of it.
Tessa Murry (08:18.34)
.
Noah Gavic (08:25.442)
Yeah, I know, I think you had a infographic that you showed me the other day that it’s got a bunch of different companies on there. I don’t know if you want to throw it up on there, but you know, some of the main ones.
Reuben Saltzman (08:34.447)
Yeah, for anybody who’s watching this on YouTube, you can see it. I’ll put it up here. Where did it go? All right. Well, I’ll put it up. Go on.
Noah Gavic (08:45.614)
Anyways, so if you’re talking to any like, Hero, that’s probably one of the big ones. They’re owned by Apex. You got McQuillen, they’re owned I believe by Wrench Group. got, oh, I’m to think of the other ones here. Deans, they are owned, so yeah, if you look down the bottom there, Apex, you see Hero down the bottom down there. They’re one of the big ones you’d see around town here.
on top of that, like I said, deans, DJs, they just kind of bought up and they’re buying up other companies as well. And they’re always, you know, there’s tons of other small ones, that are constantly getting bought up. I believe let’s see that legacy group. think they’re also buying some companies up here too, in this area as well. that are in there, like homeworks and a few other ones there on that right-hand side. And so those.
know, majority of the companies you’re seeing that are gonna be on TV, they have usually bought into this or sold out. And the reason being is the potential for the owners, because these PE groups are active right now, they’re not always active, but they’re active in certain climates, when they know they can get their return on the money. So they buy up all these companies, small and large, and they combine them to create this massive, well,
massive force of companies there and they can take these and they can basically roll them up, integrate them together to the point where they can have, know, their call centers all be in one spot. They can, they can minimize the total overhead and they can also maximize their ad spends by combining, combining, combining to the point where they’re not having four or five companies competing against you now. They’re only having one big company that can spend out and outspend.
all these other companies. So even in this area like Google My Business Leads, that’s where you’d pay Google for getting those leads in the door. They are getting to the point where they’re unattainable for the majority of the medium to small business owners to even get in that window to get on that ranking because these big companies are just buying those up and Google ranks those based on what people are willing to spend, not what they’re actually costing. And so the big companies, they can throw the money at it, the small companies can’t.
Noah Gavic (11:08.13)
and they’re starving out the small guys.
Reuben Saltzman (11:10.369)
Sure, sure. Okay.
Tessa Murry (11:12.813)
interesting. just did some quick googling and found out that kind of the number one industry to be impacted by private equities, healthcare services, then real estate, and they have about 10 % of the real estate market. And then business services and contractors, like they usually roll up HVAC, plumbing, electrical, all of those, and then retail chains and software and tech companies. And it’s growing. It’s very interesting.
Reuben Saltzman (11:29.016)
Okay.
Noah Gavic (11:33.111)
Mm-hmm.
Noah Gavic (11:39.052)
Well, and it’s interesting too. I think there was just something on the, I don’t know, was the House or Senate floor. They were talking about how a lot of these PE groups have bought up and they buy up everything in the healthcare segment. They buy up everything from the hospitals to the pharmacies, to this. I mean, literally they own every control and interest in every aspect of it and they can change and charge what they want. So that’s the bad side of private equity.
Tessa Murry (12:05.155)
Yes.
Noah Gavic (12:07.988)
know, there’s obviously, you know, not everybody’s out to do that, but that is what sometimes can happen obviously with PE groups, as they can control.
Tessa Murry (12:16.057)
Well, and with the real estate market and buying up housing, then they can impact the rates and prices and rent too.
Reuben Saltzman (12:27.616)
Hmm
Noah Gavic (12:28.226)
Yeah, well, Blackrock is one of the biggest owners of a property in the United States. So they own and then they rent out. So I mean, it happens all across the board. It’s not just in the home service industry. Obviously me being in the home service industry and having gone through a P by F, it’s kind of interesting to see that side of it. But yeah, you can see it all the way through. mean,
Tessa Murry (12:32.133)
Yeah.
Thank
Tessa Murry (12:44.717)
Yeah.
Noah Gavic (12:53.4)
I don’t know if you guys remember about Minnesota Roscoe. I know they filed for bankruptcy, I think it was six months, eight months ago. And they literally had projects in queue where they had people with their homes ripped apart, redoing them. And they literally just shut their doors. And people are like, what’s going on? Am I gonna get my money back? Is this gonna happen? And that group of owners had sold to that PE group, I can’t remember if it was one or two years. And…
Reuben Saltzman (12:59.828)
Okay. you
Noah Gavic (13:21.026)
things just kind of weren’t going the way that the PE group wanted from my understanding. I don’t know all the details on it, but I think the long-term, wasn’t making financial sense for them and they decided to call it quits and file for bankruptcy on that to basically get that off their books. So it’s interesting, like I said, a lot of companies would struggle and try to help their customers. PE overall, their long-term results are, is it going to make money? Is it going to cashflow the way we want?
And that’s the hard part is profits. know, PE at the end of the day, the people that are in charge of that group, they have to make sure they return a certain amount of profits to their investors. They say, okay, we’re gonna do X here. If they don’t, then those investors aren’t gonna easily invest more money with them and they’re also not going to continue in their current course and they’re gonna wanna get out of it. And so that’s the thing with PEP. PEP is all about
Tessa Murry (13:50.117)
profits.
Reuben Saltzman (14:11.32)
Sure.
Noah Gavic (14:18.794)
maximizing profits as much as possible for the owners of that group. And so the hard part is, is if companies that are bought up by PE are not set up already for that model, it can be a massive change for them. And it can also turn off a lot of people. And so a lot of the companies that work well with PE are ones that have already have that same very corporate and very model after that.
Tessa Murry (14:43.769)
more corporate.
Noah Gavic (14:47.318)
And so those are the ones that there’s less changes. The smaller companies, say the two to $10 million companies, those companies typically are gonna have a bigger change. A lot of those are owner operated companies. And the owner operated companies, when you don’t have a management staff on hand, and you aren’t separated from the business, that if, let’s say, like I said, Ruben, if you were to sell your business, you have people managing things for you. If you were to step away from that business, that business would still run, correct? It would still perfectly be fine.
Reuben Saltzman (14:58.196)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (15:07.544)
Yeah.
Noah Gavic (15:17.024)
That’s what PE is looking for. They’re looking for companies that can stand on their own without an owner involvement because they know that they can make that work the way they want. The hard part about that though is, Ruben, if you were to sell your business, say today, to a PE group, they’re gonna change almost everything about your business unless you’re already on the same systems, you’re already using the same software, you are using the same insurance provider, you are using the same health insurance provider.
Reuben Saltzman (15:44.084)
Hmm.
Noah Gavic (15:44.788)
They’re going to change their compensation plans for your employees. They may even change branding and your marketing strategies on there. So they’re going to come in and they’re going to adjust, know, depending on if you’re the behemoth in this area, they might model after your strategy. But if you’re not the behemoth, if you’re the smaller guy, they’re going to typically follow more of what, you know, is what’s making them money. And so
whatever is making them the most money, they’re gonna follow those procedures and they’re gonna work in to integrate those into every single business to the point they make them all the same.
Reuben Saltzman (16:17.282)
Sure, sure.
Tessa Murry (16:18.511)
Mm-hmm.
Noah Gavic (16:19.406)
So they’re basically their goal is to integrate these companies to the point where they can eventually sell to either another PE group or they can sell to another publicly held company. So there’s a company called Mytana. They produce cameras, drain cleaning equipment. They’re in St. Paul. They got bought out by, I can’t remember who it was first.
Reuben Saltzman (16:22.392)
Okay.
Noah Gavic (16:47.182)
but then they also got bought out again by a company called Ibex that owned a bunch of national companies and is on the S &P 500, I believe. And so they went from a roll up to a private equity and then up to a publicly traded company. And that’s what a lot of these are is the owners stay into the company typically because that second roll up is gonna produce the most amount of money for them.
Reuben Saltzman (17:02.144)
Okay.
Noah Gavic (17:13.684)
on that second roll up because they’re paid based on profitability of the company. So even up. And so they, you know, they’ll stick around for that second roll up. And that’s why a lot of these private equity groups are still trying to keep the owners involved is they want them involved to some degree, but they don’t want them to be on their day to day basis. They want them more high level. You know, my dad’s been retired for probably
what is he at now? He’s probably five, six years. He’s been out of the business. But he just got out of the PE group. just got bought out just recently and decided to take his final checkout. But I mean, ultimately he was holding out for another buy up to hopefully produce better results. And it was just taking too long on his aspect. And so the hard part is, like I said,
When you get involved with a PE group, you have to take an understanding that they are going to change things. Things are going to be different than what they were. And the employees need to understand too, that there is gonna be quite a few differences in that. Their compensation plans, their bonus structures, all these things are going to change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. You’ll find too that a lot of, mean, so.
Reuben Saltzman (18:13.882)
Yeah. For the better? Okay.
Noah Gavic (18:35.543)
Hero, we’ll talk about Hero quick. When they got bought out by Apex, they went through some massive changes in people. I would say the majority of their plumbers, they left. They had probably, I can’t say exactly, but I think it was closer to 20 plumbers. And I think at the end of the day after the buyout and everything, I think they maybe had probably two to three, maybe four that were left over after that. And so it,
Reuben Saltzman (18:52.531)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tessa Murry (19:03.235)
Wow.
Noah Gavic (19:04.064)
It kind of wrecks havoc as people jump shop when they hear PE group, just because they know that things are gonna get shook up and changed. And that’s the hard part about PE is, like I said, you have to understand PE’s ultimate goal. As long as you understand that, and your goals are aligned with that as a company, it’s not the end of the world. But if you are totally different than that, which I would say the majority of the companies are, it’s going to change considerably. And the hard part too is when you look at the bottom dollar,
Sometimes that bottom dollar doesn’t always make sense for the consumer as well. Prices get increased in order to be able to make where they need to. What happens is those PE groups also work with big corporations that provide HVAC, Electro, whatever, and they negotiate down all their rates because they say, okay, if I can bring you $20 million in spend this year, what can you do for me for a rebate?
Reuben Saltzman (19:56.096)
Sure. Yeah.
Noah Gavic (20:03.094)
And the small guys can’t do that, but the big guys can by having all these different corporate companies that are all combined and rolled up. And so they can basically reduce their overhead costs and reduce their expenditures by doing that, which is not something the small guy can do. The one benefit you have as a small guy working is I feel like it’s a totally different avenue. When we left my dad’s company, a lot of what the leads come into the door are all Google based.
You’re paying for that lead. You’re paying to get that customer in the door. As a smaller company, a lot of the work we do now is gonna be face to face with referrals. It’s going to be working, I mean, I don’t advertise at all with where we’re at and we’ve grown year over year considerably. And so we just work with a lot of smaller organizations and those ones, you’re constantly trading leads back and forth, working with them to try to get them business. They’re working with you to get business.
And it’s a totally different, I’m not gonna call it animal, but different business structure and style to compare to the big behemoths. And I say big behemoths, they’re still actually considered small business. Typically, people that are under the 100, 100 to 200, I think is still considered small business of employees, even though it seems massive. But they’re still considered small business. So the majority of these shops,
Tessa Murry (21:08.665)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (21:24.16)
Yeah.
Yeah, Doug. you
Tessa Murry (21:26.543)
Mm-hmm.
Noah Gavic (21:30.754)
around town themselves are still small businesses. But they are owned by these PE groups that are buying up them at a considerable rate. And then I know just one of the PE groups, just sold a lot of their portfolio to BlackRock. can’t remember who it was, but there was a big roll up there where BlackRock literally just bought, I don’t know, it was probably $500 million worth of companies from another PE group. And so,
Tessa Murry (21:39.141)
Hmm.
Noah Gavic (21:59.018)
It’s a constant roll up. It’s literally combining, working in the next buy up and then go to the next buy up, then next buy up and next buy up and you’re constantly just compacting it and pushing these companies all together. And so that’s the hard part about PE is PE is not bad inherently, but some of the practices of PE can produce things like anti-competitive behavior and pushing people out and things like that. And so that’s the hard part about it is because you have so much money to swing around, you really can.
Reuben Saltzman (22:20.556)
Yeah. Sure. Sure. Okay. so let me ask you, you, get big enough and you start having PE companies come to you and they say, look, we want to take over brother’s underground. Would you ever do it?
Tessa Murry (22:21.411)
Mm-hmm.
Noah Gavic (22:28.174)
push people out of your way and control the market in aspects that are not always the best.
Tessa Murry (22:33.487)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Noah Gavic (22:47.374)
It’s funny, know, we were talking earlier on the show, you said, you know, you just got a notice from somebody asking you for an email. I get them all the time. I get them. You get them all the time. People saying, Hey, do you want to sell your business? You know, Hey, we can help you. Hey, we can inject cash into your company. You know, there’s different ways they come at you with it. At the end of the day, it’s all to try to buy some equity into your company to be able to get more and more of it. You know, the thing we.
Reuben Saltzman (22:55.624)
Yeah. All the time.
Noah Gavic (23:16.014)
we had one of the bigger corporations around town that was getting bought up. We didn’t know they were getting bought up, but they sat us down for, hey, you wanna talk with us about getting bought up? And we’re like, well, sure, we’ll sit down with dinner with you. And we just were listening to them and we’re like, hey, so are you gonna get bought by a PE group? And they’re like, no, we don’t have anything in the books. have people asking us, but we don’t really have anything set or no plans.
you know, ultimately we knew we didn’t want to get bought by P because we know that our, goal is eventually to grow to a size that, you know, we want to make sure we take care of our customers. We want to make sure that it’s not the end of the day. It’s not the bottom dollar that pinching the pennies that is going to produce the best customer service for that, that customer. And so it’s not our own goal. And plus the people in relationships that we’ve made through the last 22 years of doing this work.
Those are the people that trust us to do good quality work. And the hard part would be is when you sell, they don’t want to work with the company. They want to work with you. They want to work with the heart and soul of the company. They want to make sure that there’s somebody on the line that answers that phone call. And so it was funny when we had left my dad’s company.
Reuben Saltzman (24:23.244)
Yeah. you
Noah Gavic (24:38.018)
there was people that said they wanted to work with me and this and that. And then we said, well, hey, we have to send you back to them. We can’t take you on as a client. We always said, hey, you if, you decide after using them and we’re gone and that you don’t want to use them and then you decide that you like us, you know, obviously I to have you sign something that says, Hey, we’ve sent you back there. And, you know, you’ve decided to come and work with us instead because
at the end of the day, you we didn’t want to steal their customers. We didn’t want to steal the customers that had already been there, but they had gotten so used to working with us and so love working with the people. And the fact that we would answer the phone, we get back to them, we give them prices and stuff right away. We would go ahead and provide them the things they needed in a timely fashion that they go, I can’t work this other method. And it got to the point where they just said, no, I want to work back with you guys. You guys know what you’re doing. You guys are all set.
Reuben Saltzman (25:31.776)
Yeah. you
Noah Gavic (25:35.936)
It just works well. And so that’s kind of where, you know, we’ve built those relationships for so long. And that’s where PE, you know, when that company reached out to us and said, hey, can we buy part of you? Can you partner with us? And we said, hey, you know what, to be perfectly honest, if we got bought up by you or bought in to your organization, the majority of the people that currently use us would probably go somewhere else.
and you would end up with the long-term results you’re wanting because at the end of the day, they wanna work with a small business. They wanna work with a person with a name. They don’t wanna work with some corporation. And that’s, think, a lot of the differences in what people are looking for in this day and age. Some people want the fast 24-hour service. You get out here, I don’t care what it costs. They’re gonna go with typically somebody they’ve seen online. But the majority of the people, they’re…
as long as they’re not in a pinch and they need somebody right now, they’re gonna start asking their friends and neighbor, who did you use? They’re gonna go on Nextdoor, Facebook. You have any recommendations for a plumber? You have any recommendations for a drywall guy, a painter? They’re gonna ask these questions and they’re gonna go, hey, who do I use? And a lot of times you’re gonna get referrals and these people are not anywhere on anybody’s radar. But because they do well and they do good business, that’s where they get the referral and that’s why they don’t market as much. They don’t have to be in that market because they get such a great referral.
Tessa Murry (26:58.125)
Okay.
Noah Gavic (27:00.462)
just like you Ruben and what you do. mean, like a lot of your realtors, they know how well you guys go through the houses with a fine tooth comb to make sure that the buyer is getting the best possible house they can. And if not, that they know exactly what those drawbacks are or concerns, and they can make an informed, educated decision based on the knowledge you guys provide.
Reuben Saltzman (27:21.219)
Yeah, yeah and you know a big big point that you know you kind of read between the lines of what you’re saying is if you’re searching for a service provider or whomever it is you go online and you see the
Tessa Murry (27:29.925)
Sponsored by.
Reuben Saltzman (27:35.052)
Google ad, you see it’s sponsored, sponsored search result. You just got to think who’s paying for this. This is going to be expensive. Who’s paying for it? I am. This is coming off. This is being added to the price of whatever you’re going to pay is the ability for them to have these ads on Google.
Noah Gavic (27:44.046)
Correct. Yep.
Noah Gavic (27:53.294)
So a typical marketing budget for a company, right now, considering the marketing spends higher, but on average, usually used to be 10 % of your budget. You would spend 10%, sorry, 10 % of your revenue. So 10 % of your revenue that comes in. So if you bring in 20 million, you’re dropping $2 million in ad spend. So that already takes off the top, that 10 % of what they’re making. And then they have overhead and they have all these other expenses that are gonna eat away at that.
Tessa Murry (27:53.58)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (28:11.448)
Sure.
Noah Gavic (28:21.998)
And I would say the majority of companies that are looking, know, their overall profitability for the majority of say home service companies, know, minimum I would say is 10 % people want, but in reality, people are looking for 20 to 25. I mean, most of the time people like, hey, you know, I can put my money in the market and make back maybe 10 to 12%. That’s less risk typically than buying this company and having to deal with it. So they want to have a higher return.
Reuben Saltzman (28:39.72)
Mm.
Noah Gavic (28:51.372)
and the market’s currently providing for them. And that’s where, like I said, PE groups, when they come in, they strip all the equity out of the company. They minimize the overhead cost on it. And so at the end of the day, like all the vehicles that were owned by say, my dad’s company, they didn’t buy any more vehicles. They literally leased everything. Everything was leased through a company. Everything that they own for the most part, except for some hand tools and things like that, they minimize all inventory.
They try to keep it off and so they’d have VMI, is virtual management inventory. So Home Depot is one of the ones that goes there. Lowe’s Pro, they will literally have their own Home Depot store in the building. And so they’ll supply that.
Reuben Saltzman (29:37.228)
I’ve seen that before. Yes. Yes, it’s wild. And I mean,
Tessa you picture me when he’s talking about I mean you go to a HVAC shop and there’s like literally a store and it’s all fully supplied and it’s just a store inside of a shop where they don’t own anything but they buy it from the store inside their own shop it’s just I don’t know the first time I saw it it took me a minute to wrap my mind around this yeah
Tessa Murry (29:53.842)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tessa Murry (30:00.131)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tessa Murry (30:06.561)
Yeah. Yeah.
Noah Gavic (30:07.672)
So at the end of the day, private equity goal is to make your overhead disappear as much as possible and to produce a high amount of profits. And so if they can minimize any kind of expenses that would apply to that, that’s why, like I said, they’re gonna minimize your vehicles are gonna get leased. They gave back any money that was owned by the owners that put in. So if they received money, the owners would put in, all that money was returned to them.
as long as they had some running capital still in the company and they kept those margins so slim from a month to month basis that sometimes they’d have to inject money back in if they say you had a bad month. But it was so profit driven to say, hey, you guys, we need to make sure that the customer, know, each average ticket is X, we need to make sure that this and so it came less about taking care of the customer’s needs and more about
how do you maximize profitability on that customer? And that’s the hard part about it is, the companies that do it well, they are companies that they’ll maximize their profits and they do have some sales techniques and they’re gonna make sure that they don’t leave money on the table, but the ones that do it well are the ones that are gonna educate customers and let the customer make the best informed decision.
Reuben Saltzman (31:09.307)
you
Noah Gavic (31:32.334)
And that’s the hard part about it is too, is a lot of sales is pushy in this day and age and they’re pushing customers that you should do this, you should do that. And, you know, I’ve been through plenty of sales trainings and there’s lots of ways to raise your average ticket to get the customer to buy more, to do this. And at the end of the day, you gotta make sure that customer wants to buy more. And you gotta bring up things to that customer say,
Reuben Saltzman (31:33.268)
you
Noah Gavic (31:57.452)
Hey, ma’am, if I come across other things, I’m working here that are of concern, do you want me to bring them to your attention or should I leave keeping to myself? And that was always something that I always tell customers because that allowed me an opportunity to talk with them. And yeah, sure, would raise an average ticket on it, but at least allow me to bring things up to that customer. And I wasn’t gonna say, hey, you have to do this. If you don’t, you’re gonna have your house flood. You’re gonna have this, this, and this.
The best thing is, and this is what you guys do Ruben, is you educate that customer to the point where they have all the information in their hands to go out and make the best educated decision. And that’s the companies that do it well, is they do that. But a lot of these companies, of the P push, because of the push down to the bottom dollar and the push for we need to make X amount profit, it pushes that customer or that tech into a selling position where
Instead of them coming in and providing the best service for that customer, they’re coming in to see what’s the most I can make off this customer. And that’s the hard part about what, and not even PE groups, but companies in general that work that way. That’s the thing about it is it pushes that customer to the bottom of the line. And at the end of the day, they’re trying to maximize profits over what can I make sure this customer is taken care of and make sure it’s taken care of economically.
Reuben Saltzman (32:58.044)
Yeah. Yes.
Reuben Saltzman (33:21.054)
Sure, Are there any?
Tessa Murry (33:23.545)
This might be a bold statement, but I appreciate how you’re presenting all the information, you know, the pros and the cons and, you know, you know, a well-rounded perspective. I have a hard time getting behind some of this though, because personally, it feels like when we prioritize profits over anything else that’s gotten us to where we are in this country with a lot of the socioeconomic issues of disparity and…
We start monopolizing things like healthcare or you I understand as a consumer, you know the benefits of having a Walmart or an Amazon. It’s cheap. It’s convenient But what are we doing to ourselves at the same time? Are we? Shooting ourselves in the foot. Are we losing quality? Are we losing? The humanity I guess and I guess I’m curious on your take like
As in Ruben to know, you guys are business owners. You’ve been in this role for a while this is something that Are you seeing this kind of taking over the the service industries now like in the last few years? Is is our private equity companies really coming in and buying up most of these companies and and if so Is that because they offer the best price for peep for business owners that are trying to sell and get out and retire?
I guess just big picture, kind of what do see happening and why is it happening like this?
Noah Gavic (34:54.776)
Yeah, I mean, I’ll go first here quick.
Just in my dad’s case, he had had a bunch of other owners involved with the company as well. They had merged a while back, and so there really wasn’t ever an opportunity for him to pass the company on to us. I the other owners would have never sold at the amount he wanted to spend for the company. And so P, they were gonna pay the highest amount for what was available. And so at the end of the day,
I never blame my dad nor do I blame P for what happened to his company. I always just tell people that, you know, when we found out that P was involved, we knew that that wasn’t going to be the best case for us. And we knew that it wasn’t going to fit with the style of how we want to run, you know, our calls and also with our customers. And so we made the decision to, you know, move on at that point. With that said,
There is, mean ultimately like I said, there’s the haves and the have nots and there will be a point where that, the middle class is missing. I think that’s missing also in businesses as well. You find that there’s not a lot of medium sized businesses because they’re all being bought by either the larger companies or the PE groups and so you have a lot of.
Tessa Murry (36:12.719)
Mm-hmm.
Noah Gavic (36:24.106)
middle ground gap in the middle of that. And the hard part is, is being a small business person like myself, you know, it’s a different, I don’t market because I work with other companies, lots of other companies and some of them you may know as well that are bigger corporations too. And I tackle their hard problems that other people don’t want to do. And I’ve got to the point where we’ve got specialized in what we do. And I feel like as a small business,
You know, they talk about being a master, you know, master of all, sorry, a jack of all trades, the master of, I can’t say it all, they’re not a master of none, but they don’t say the other part of it too. You know, rest of that quote.
Reuben Saltzman (37:03.451)
Jack of all trades, master of none. Yeah. No, what’s that?
Noah Gavic (37:11.916)
better than a master of one or something like that. And they talk about how these companies, majority of them, own, they have HVAC electrical plumbing. They bring you all in a house with their thing. They have their plans and say, okay, you’re a preferred customer if you pay X amount, you get a free drain cleaning, you get a free furnace unit, you get a free HVAC. Those are things that the smaller companies can’t provide. Just like Amazon, I’m giving you free shipping, you get free prime.
Tessa Murry (37:41.401)
Yep.
Noah Gavic (37:42.062)
video, they’re giving all these benefits that these smaller companies can’t. But what they aren’t always getting is that personal level with that customer, because they’re pushed to make sure that service call produces the most amount of money in that time that they’re there. So they have to think about profitability. Whereas the majority of the smaller companies, they’re chatting with the customer, they’re building a relationship with the customer. And that’s the long term results. And that’s what eventually
Tessa Murry (37:47.229)
Right.
Tessa Murry (37:53.209)
Okay.
Reuben Saltzman (37:58.04)
Sure. you
Tessa Murry (38:07.663)
Mm.
Noah Gavic (38:11.638)
What I’ve found from my perspective is yes, it is building these big corporations long-term and they will still be there. But I mean…
You can’t, you lose the personal touch with the customers when you sell to a PE group. And that’s what a lot of customers still want, is they want that personal interaction. They wanna be able to talk with a customer. They wanna joke around. They don’t wanna feel like this is a forced script that I have to follow. The customers, know, in a sales technique, that’s where a lot of them come in. They go and they have this script. They literally have AI tools now. So this is an interesting one too. There’s one called Brillo.
Tessa Murry (38:35.885)
No.
Tessa Murry (38:43.27)
Yeah.
Noah Gavic (38:54.776)
and I can’t remember what the other one is, where the technician will have it on their phone. And so they’ll come in, they’ll put their phone down, and what a lot of customers don’t realize is they’re being recorded. Well as the call is going on. And so that AI tool records the whole conversation between you and the customer and grades the technician on their ability to bring up certain aspects to the call, that script of what they’re supposed to follow to make sure they maximize their profit. And so,
Reuben Saltzman (39:20.32)
Wow
Noah Gavic (39:24.874)
That goes back to the managers and the managers will listen to that call and they’ll look at it and go, okay, you did this, this and this, but you missed this. Now, and a training aspect, I think it’s good for them, especially new people to learn, but also too in a privacy aspect. That’s the other hard part is how does that affect your privacy? I know Minnesota, we’re a one person consent recording. So as long as one person’s consenting to it, it can be done.
Reuben Saltzman (39:27.32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Noah Gavic (39:54.37)
But in other states, what does that look like? And how does that affect the customer? Because like I said, they’re getting ran through a sales presentation versus let me look at your details, let me give you an evaluation, and let me provide you A through Z, whatever options we can do, one being we do nothing, one being, okay, your thermal couple’s bad, we need to replace it, or at the end of the top of the thing, hey,
You know, I noticed you have some hard water that’s building up and at the end of the day, you could benefit from a softener and a water heater. We could go ahead and take care of all these things for you. You know, that’s truly making sure that the customer is taken care of, but forcing them and pigeonholing them only into saying, well, your thermal couple is bad, but we got to replace the water heater. I can’t put this $10 part in for you. I have to make sure we put in a, you know, a $1,500 to $2,000 water heater.
And so that’s where the sales side of it is. mean, there was one company, it was a drain company, a drain and sewer company. And instead of offering the customer an option for a liner, which would take care of all their issues, it would sleeve the new pipe inside the old, they would always sell that customer an excavation first so that that customer can still have problems so that they could sell them a liner down the road.
Reuben Saltzman (41:19.456)
Hmm.
Noah Gavic (41:21.74)
So that’s the hard part about it is the way that it pushes people, especially on people that are commission based to sell. And that’s always been the hard part about having sales people that are commission is to keep the ethical part of a commission there without them pushing to make sure that they can push for this higher end sale. I’ll let Ruben.
Tessa Murry (41:22.342)
and know.
Tessa Murry (41:42.821)
So in your bottom line is profits, ethics is not always the number one priority.
Reuben Saltzman (41:46.872)
Yeah. Sure. Well, I mean, just just to tack on to what you’re saying, it drives me crazy because it’s it’s like ethics takes a backseat.
Noah Gavic (41:47.566)
And like I said, I can’t say that every PE group does that, but it does inherently cause a lot of companies because they’re pushing for the profits and they’re pushing for the bottom line to attract people of that nature. So do you want to include some of that Ruben? And I kind of talked a lot here, so I’ll let you finish on that.
Tessa Murry (42:03.589)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (42:16.766)
And just the story you talked about, okay, bad thermal couple, we’re we got to replace it. I mean, it’s the only thing we should do is replace it. When they come in and they say that it ends up coming back to me because we inspected this unit. And now they’re coming back saying, I just had a professional contractor out. And why didn’t you tell me that I may have a thermal couple that’s going to fail in the next year. And then I’m going to have to replace my whole unit. It’s going to cost me thousands. This is all your fault. And it’s like,
It drives me up the wall. I hate that kind of crap. so I’m not for this at all. Now, how it affects the home inspection business, I really don’t know. I don’t have any experience with it. I know of many home inspection company owners who have been bought out by private equity, none in Minnesota that I know of, but I know that it’s been happening a lot in the home inspection space.
And seems like people are okay with it. They’re happy with it. But it has changed their business significantly where they are very, very focused on the numbers. I mean, they know exactly all of their numbers, like how many phone calls do we get per hour and how many of those are converted and how many dollars per hour are we making when we answer the phones and how many, you know, like
Noah Gavic (43:29.71)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (43:45.41)
They know every little statistic and this is what their world has turned into is knowing every little number. And to me, it just seems like a drag. I would hate that. I like to talk about ideas and concepts and how things work and teaching people how things work and just focusing on all these numbers and maximizing profitability. I mean, sure.
Great for my pocketbook, but what a drag. I have no interest in it. And I say this now, I preface this by saying I don’t know a lot about it. I mean, who knows? Maybe someday I would sell my company to that. But today, knowing what I know, I have no interest in anything like that.
Tessa Murry (44:17.229)
Okay.
Noah Gavic (44:19.459)
Yeah.
Noah Gavic (44:35.926)
And that’s kind of where we’re at too, is with the current state, and like I said, I don’t think you’ll see this consistently. It kind of comes in waves and it comes with the way that the economy is and the way that the markets are. And it comes with the way that the people that are investing, if they can make more money off of something else than a PE group, they’re going to get to that. So at the…
Tessa Murry (44:36.247)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (44:43.441)
Okay.
Reuben Saltzman (44:51.032)
So interest rates skyrocket, these PE groups may disappear.
Noah Gavic (45:02.028)
Yeah, they might disappear. At the end of the day, they’re not gonna disappear completely until they get bought out by another company. They’re gonna do roll-ups.
Reuben Saltzman (45:08.002)
They’ll stop buying. I shouldn’t say disappear. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Sure.
Noah Gavic (45:10.892)
they will slow down buying. They’re still gonna always continue to conglomerate. But like I said, they gotta look at the risk factor and what that is for their people that are giving them money, their investors, and what they can return consistently on that. And so like I said, this is all a financial, it’s all a metrics game. And the companies that do well are the companies that understand their metrics. They’re not obsessed with it, but they understand.
Tessa Murry (45:26.61)
Okay.
Noah Gavic (45:38.36)
how these calls convert and what they need to make on it. Because at the end of the day, as a business owner, you should know what you need to do for a breakeven cost. Say, okay, I need to sell X amount per year. Otherwise, you’re not doing due diligence as a business. You’re gonna go under if you don’t know what you need to make. So you do need to have a basic understanding of numbers. But to Ruben’s point, there are people that are literally like, our calls drop here, what’s up with that? Okay, or your booking percentage have dropped by a percent. How do we make this better?
Reuben Saltzman (45:51.416)
Yeah. Yeah. you
Noah Gavic (46:07.15)
And it’s like, yeah, you have a bad call, you have a bad day, there are things that change in a flux. You need to look at it as a big bubble versus just the going down to the microscopic of, you did something wrong here. And that’s the thing, the people that have a heart, have a soul, educate the customers, but also know their numbers and know how to run a smooth and efficient business. Those are the ones that are gonna continue to grow. And they’re gonna fill in that category of that middle size business because they wanna grow.
A lot of people that are smaller businesses, they might have one or two employees and they might just be a one man operation and they don’t want the headaches of having employees and dealing with the work comp and the claims and the people calling out because they’re sick and this and that and then they got to take on it and the after hours calls. There’s a lot of those small companies that are maybe the one to $2 million or somebody even smaller than that that are just a one man or two man, one guy and a helper.
Reuben Saltzman (46:53.144)
Yeah. you
Noah Gavic (47:03.704)
do an HVAC install is constantly. And those you’re gonna constantly have. But I think as you see these buy ups and these PE groups buy, you’re gonna see the companies that are efficient, that know what they’re doing, that know their numbers, they know how to sell, but ethically, they’re gonna fill that middle gap there of what’s being bought from the PE. And so it’s making a space for those people. And so, like I said, there’s the good, the bad and the ugly. And there’s things that PE can do.
Reuben Saltzman (47:21.756)
Good.
Noah Gavic (47:30.21)
but there’s also bad things that can happen from being bought by PE or having PE involved in it. So everybody says, PE is horrible. And I don’t want to say that because at the end of the day, PE can produce a culture that is bad if you are not intentional about the way you run your business, or if you give up that responsibility by letting them own a majority share, which happens, then at the end of the day, you are at their will. And so that’s the hard part is, is if you decide to pick a PE group to sell to,
Reuben Saltzman (47:45.84)
Mm. Sure.
Noah Gavic (48:00.334)
you need to make sure that you know about that PE group and how they work to make sure that they’re not gonna change your business to the core of what you are not wanting. So it’s a hard aspect to look at. And I know like I when my dad sold, they got quartered by probably five to 10 PE groups. It got down to like two groups at that point and then one of them finally made an offer that was worthwhile for them. But there was a lot of back and forth and it took probably over a year.
Reuben Saltzman (48:07.551)
Yeah, yeah. you
Tessa Murry (48:09.635)
Mm-hmm.
Noah Gavic (48:28.526)
from them saying, yeah, we wanna do it, to all the financials, to everything, to get it set where they actually bought a controlling interest in the company. So it’s never a quick deal. It’s usually a fat, know, on the shortest span, it’s gonna be maybe six months, but usually most of these deals take a year to do.
Reuben Saltzman (48:37.209)
Sure Sure Sure Well very enlightening Noah Appreciate all your insights on this Any any other thoughts any anything we forgot to cover before we wrap up today?
Tessa Murry (48:46.063)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Noah Gavic (49:00.478)
you know, the biggest thing you could do is if you think or if you, you if you say, I don’t want to work with P, I don’t want to work with big business. Obviously, make sure you have a good network of people that you work with. You know, I have people constantly that say, hey, do you know masonry people? Do you know HVAC people? Do know plumbers? You know, drain cleaners? Do you know painters?
Reuben Saltzman (49:15.075)
Mm.
Reuben Saltzman (49:21.784)
Yes.
Noah Gavic (49:27.308)
The biggest thing is, is like I said, mean, know Ruben, you have a lot of people on your list of people that you’ve worked with in the past that do well and do good quality work on there. And, you know, having and utilizing those people is going to help produce a better end result. So reach out to people, especially if you have somebody that’s mechanically inclined that works in the trades or works in whatever field you’re doing or works in a similar trade of that. A lot of times they work with people.
that might be what you’re looking for. So if you’re looking for somebody that does, you know, I need a painter for my property. Well, you know, maybe a plumber that you have that you work with and you say, I like this guy a lot. He might know a painter because he has to rip out walls and repair it. He probably has somebody he works with that works really well. A lot of the people that I’ve brought into our house to work, I’ve gotten his referrals from other people. And so before you go ahead and just dial a number that you saw online,
Reuben Saltzman (50:15.824)
Yeah. you
Noah Gavic (50:20.492)
before you look on Google and you see your top three preferred vendors, maybe scroll down, take a look at it. They might not have the most amount of reviews, but look at that. that customer, say, if they have maybe 50 reviews and they’re all five star or 4.9, that’s a lot better than somebody that’s got 50,000 reviews and they’re at 4.9, because they can bury those negative leads in their Google listing by getting 10 more positive reviews out of it. And,
Reuben Saltzman (50:34.84)
Wow.
Tessa Murry (50:46.662)
Mm-hmm.
Noah Gavic (50:47.692)
So sometimes even people will pay for reviews as big companies. They’ll give discounts and things like that in order to get them to review. And so that’s the hard part is making sure that you have working people, whether it’s next door, people on that app sometimes will get our name or we’ll talk with realtors. A lot of times we do a ton of work with realtors because of just word of mouth, hey, I worked with these guys, they are amazing.
Tessa Murry (50:54.499)
Yeah.
Noah Gavic (51:12.94)
I mean, Ruben, a lot of your stuff, I’m sure, comes to people that you’ve long-term had realtor relationships with, where they constantly will use you, refer you, and it’s just, a constant snowball effect. And so, just do your research. Don’t just call the first number that pops up when you search Google, because Google will be charging them, and they’ll be charging you.
Reuben Saltzman (51:17.268)
So for sure. Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (51:33.708)
And if you had a home inspection, ask your home inspector who they like, because I’ll tell you, we get a lot of requests for a lot of different things and we, we vet everybody and we’ve got a big list of people that we give out. Although I will say for the sewer repair, I think you’re the only one on there, Noah. Yeah.
Tessa Murry (51:41.637)
Thank
Tessa Murry (51:50.457)
He burned it.
Noah Gavic (51:51.938)
Well, hopefully that’s a good thing there. So we try to make sure we take care of customers as much as possible and make sure that they are getting the best results for the best money.
Reuben Saltzman (52:00.086)
Yeah, well again, Noah’s Noah’s company is Brothers Underground. If people want to find you, Noah, how do they get a hold of you?
Noah Gavic (52:08.014)
You can call our main line, which is going to be 763-250-5272, or you can look online. We have our website, which is going to be brosunderground.com or brothersunderground. That’ll come to us too as well. But you can go on there. We have a nice little nifty thing where literally if you have a video inspection from say Rubin or one of the other home inspectors, you can upload it right on there where it says get a quote.
and it literally integrates their information already into our system so I can send them back a quote, lickety split, and usually a turnaround time we can get it back to you in less than 24 hours.
Reuben Saltzman (52:45.685)
Love that. that. Tessa, any thoughts before you wrap?
Tessa Murry (52:46.285)
That’s cool. Very cool. This is very, you know, I’d say thank you, Noah, for coming on this podcast. This is kind of a heavy topic, I think. It ties into a lot of things that I mean, I think are coming to light in the world right now, too. So I think is a timely conversation and thanks for shedding some light on it, Noah.
Reuben Saltzman (53:12.16)
Yeah, appreciate it. Well, for listeners, if you want to reach out to me or Tessa, you got any thoughts, questions, show ideas, whatever, love to hear from you. You can reach us at podcast at StructureTech.com and we will catch you next time. Take care.
Noah Gavic (53:12.632)
Yeah, that could be help.