To watch a video version of this podcast, click here: https://youtu.be/0US0bHGynQo
In this episode, Reuben Saltzman and Tessa Murry once again welcome Structure Tech’s Service Manager, Eric Houseman, for a deep dive into one of the most debated topics in home inspections: flashing and exterior water management.
Prompted by an email from fellow home inspector Chris, the discussion explores real-world challenges with flashing details, siding clearances, and the gap between best practices and industry standards. The episode highlights why these details are often overlooked, how that impacts homes, and what inspectors and homeowners should know to avoid costly hidden damage.
Here’s the link to Inspector Empire Builder: https://www.iebcoaching.com/events
Takeaways
“No damage yet” is not a valid reason to ignore improper flashing—problems can take years to surface.
You often cannot confirm the absence of damage without intrusive inspection, so assumptions are risky.
Even small, undersized, or poorly angled kick‑out flashings can increase water intrusion potential.
Head flashing/drip caps above windows and doors are universally required by manufacturers—even if local builders claim otherwise.
Context matters: overhangs, siding type, wall assembly, and home age affect how serious missing flashing is.
Water‑resistant barriers and tape alone cannot replace properly installed rigid flashing.
When in doubt, report the defect clearly and let the builder or homeowner decide the next steps.
Home inspectors must balance clarity, liability, and real‑world practicality when writing reports.
Builder and agent pushback is common—but manufacturer instructions are the ultimate authority.
Good bedside manner and client communication can prevent inspectors from being labeled “deal killers.”
Chapters
00:00 Intro and episode setup
00:27 Welcoming back Eric Houseman
00:56 Show sponsor: IEB
01:40 Listener Chris’s email and the topic of exterior water‑management defects
02:47 Question 1: Kick‑out flashing
05:23 Undersized or improperly angled kick‑outs
06:15 “There’s no damage—why mention it?”
08:06 When and why Structure Tech calls out inadequate kick‑outs
09:43 Real‑world builder behavior and simple fixes
11:11 How wording in reports focuses on increased potential for problems
12:10 Balancing best practice and liability
13:53 Question 2: Drip caps and head flashing
17:12 Why windows and openings universally require rigid flashing
18:37 Builder pushback: “It’s not required.”
21:07 What siding manufacturers expect (and why it matters)
24:03 Considering home age, siding type, and overhangs
25:46 A continuum of concern: stucco vs. vinyl
28:08 How Structure Tech phrases drip‑cap comments
29:12 Question 3: Z‑flashing, drainage gaps, and siding clearance
31:57 Manufacturer requirements vs. real‑world installations
32:46 Structure Tech’s canned report language
36:57 Should you mention missing kick‑outs on older homes? (Yes.)
38:48 Reuben’s personal stucco repair story
41:25 Why missing flashing matters even on pre‑1990s homes
41:43 How to respond when builders say “No other inspector reports this”
45:13 Handling pushback and the “deal killer” label
47:26 How agents affect deal perception
51:11 Improving client experience and reducing anxiety
52:59 Understanding client “pain tolerance.”
54:24 Closing thoughts and invitation for listener feedback
TRANSCRIPTION
The following is an AI-generated transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is mostly accurate, it will contain some errors due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Reuben Saltzman: Welcome to my house. Welcome to the Structure Talk podcast, a production of Structure Tech Home Inspections. My name is Reuben Saltzman. I’m your host alongside building science geek, Tessa Murry. We help home inspectors up their game through education, and we help homeowners to be better stewards of their houses. We’ve been keeping it real on this podcast since 2019, and we are also the number one home inspection podcast in the world, according to my mom.
Reuben Saltzman (00:01.364)
Welcome back to the Structured Talk podcast. Tessa, always great to see you again. This is kind of part two from last week, but kind of not. Yeah, we’re going to continue on with what we were talking about last time. Well, we got Eric Hausman here again. Greatest name in home inspections ever. Eric.
Tessa Murry (00:07.916)
to see you too, Ruben.
Tessa Murry (00:18.167)
Thank
Tessa Murry (00:21.817)
Welcome back Eric, good to have you.
Eric Houseman (00:25.335)
Thanks for having me again.
Reuben Saltzman (00:27.042)
Yeah. And for anyone who missed last week’s episode, Eric is the service manager extraordinaire at structure tech. He handles everything in the field and he does a whole lot else. He’s, he’s the man with the Cape on our team. That’s, that’s definitely Eric, but yeah, he does. Well, I’ll start the show off with a shout out to our show sponsors. I E B inspector empire builder. It’s.
Tessa Murry (00:44.185)
Where’s multiple hats for sure?
Reuben Saltzman (00:56.856)
community, it’s coaching, it’s advice for home inspectors on how to better run their home inspection company. This isn’t about the technical stuff about how to do a home inspection, it’s how to run things. And I’ve gotten just so much value out of being a member of IEB over the last six years, something like that, six plus years. It’s been quite a while.
And if you’d like more information about IEB or their upcoming conference, Unite, you can check the show notes. I will have a link there where you can learn more about them. But today our topic is an email from one of our listeners. This is from Chris. I don’t know if he wants me to use his last name or not. So I’ll just say Chris. But he’s another home inspector and he had a lot of questions for us about.
how we do things and how we report on them. And I thought it’d be fun to just break this all down and have a conversation around this. I’m gonna say we don’t have the answers. I’m not coming on here saying this is how it should be done. All I can share is what we do. That’s it. I’m just sharing from experience and we’ll have some opinions today. That’s all they are.
These are our opinions. I’m sure you talked to 10 different home inspectors. You’re gonna have as many opinions on how all this stuff should be reported on. let’s, I’m gonna read the whole email. You guys cool with that? Okay. So we said, I keep running into the same kinds of complaints in the field and I’m still trying to refine that balance between best practice and reportable defects.
Tessa Murry (02:34.113)
Okay, let’s do it.
Eric Houseman (02:35.264)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (02:47.98)
especially during new construction and 11 month warranty inspections. The more I talk with other home inspectors, the more obvious it becomes that everyone handles these exterior water management details differently, even though in theory, they should be fairly black and white. These topics create daily friction in the inspection world and I’d love to hear from you. So that’s why I’ve got all these questions. I’m paraphrasing a little bit here.
Number one, question number one, in bold, kick out flashing. What do we do about kick out flashing? And not just lack of kick out, but maybe undersized or improperly installed kick out flashing. He says most of the kick outs that he sees aren’t missing, but they might be undersized. They might be trimmed to.
Tessa Murry (03:20.313)
.
Reuben Saltzman (03:46.35)
He wrote trimmed to fit the gutter. yeah, I see what he’s saying. They cut it down so that it could fit the gutter or not angled properly. And he said, when kickouts are smaller than the commonly recommended four to six inch height. And then he says in parentheses, okay, where does, all right, let’s stop right there. He’s saying four to six inches. There’s nothing in the code that says it needs to be
four inches high, right? I mean, the code says you need kick out flashing. It doesn’t give you any, it’s not a detailed guide on how to do it. It just says you need it and it needs the direct water out of the wall. then he says, most manufacturer and best practice diagrams such as those from the EIMA, the APA, CertainTeed, NRCA, BSC, all these,
show a four to six inch rise and a 110 degree to 130 degree angle.
And then he admits, although it’s not specifically spelled out in the IRC, the international residential code. so he, he’s calling these out. He’s saying, Hey, it’s not done right. And then the kickback he hears is that we always trim them. It’s fine. Or there’s no damage to the house. So why even mention it? And so his question is if the IRC doesn’t specify a minimum size, let’s say a kick out is only one inch tall.
Tessa Murry (05:03.037)
Thank
Reuben Saltzman (05:23.47)
It’s this cute little thing where it meets a gutter. Would we still consider it present and acceptable or is it simply too undersized a function? What do we do about this?
All right, Eric, great question. Eric, I’m putting you on the spot. What do do?
Tessa Murry (05:39.065)
Great question.
Eric Houseman (05:44.787)
man. All right. So I mean, it sounds to me like we’re specifically talking about new construction, 11 month warranty inspection. So we’re talking about newer houses, right? Okay. I’ll specifically go to the arguments about, we always trim them, it’s fine. And there’s no damage. So why mention it? I think the first thing to consider is, that it’s going to take
Reuben Saltzman (05:56.014)
Yeah, it’s supposed to be a relate.
Eric Houseman (06:15.092)
quite a while for that damage to occur. You’re talking about a new construction home, an 11 month warranty home. It’s barely broken in at 11 months. It hasn’t seen a full year’s worth of weather. It hasn’t seen years or potentially decades of water running down that roof line.
coming in contact with that kick-out flashing, missing or overrunning the kick-out flashing and spilling down the sidewall of the house to potentially cause that damage. So the argument of there’s no damage, so why mention it, I don’t think it really applies. If that’s the rebuttal coming from the contractor, at least that’s what I feel like it is. I might be taking that wrong.
Reuben Saltzman (07:00.802)
Yeah. Well, no, I think you’re right on. And not only that, to further your point, how do you know there’s no damage?
Eric Houseman (07:10.828)
Sure.
Reuben Saltzman (07:13.594)
You gotta see inside the wall and maybe we won’t even call it damage. Maybe we’ll just say the wall sheathing is wet. It’s not deteriorated yet. It takes a while for it to deteriorate. What if it’s just wet? How do you know? Unless you’re intrusive moisture testing, you don’t know there’s no damage.
Tessa Murry (07:21.465)
Yeah.
Tessa Murry (07:36.414)
You mean you can’t scan the inside wall with an IR camera for a bit?
Reuben Saltzman (07:40.398)
Yeah, I think we’ve debunked that a few times. Yeah, that’s not going to tell you anything. So yeah, I don’t like anybody’s rebuttal saying there’s no damage. There’s no way that you can say that. But how hard are we going to push on this? mean, okay, Eric, it’s one inch high. Does that go in your report?
Eric Houseman (08:06.9)
I’ve reported on, I guess the right way to put it would be inadequate kick out flashing, whether it’s not high enough, whether it’s too short, it doesn’t kick out from the wall enough. I’ve certainly reported on it before. I don’t think, you know, I was kind of reviewing this email before we started here and I was like,
When was the last time that I saw something like that? And I really don’t feel like I see it in an inadequate state all that often. I generally see it four to six inches kicked out in an angle. looks beefy enough, if you will. I generally don’t see it. Have I reported on it in the past? Sure. I’ve said that it should be taller. It’s not likely going to handle
a large amount of water and do its job and the recommendation is it should be four to six inches high up the sidewall of the house. I think that there’s, I wish, well and I don’t wish, as a home inspector, we knew more about the aftermath of what we report on. I think we’ve all done enough home inspections where we can say we generally don’t hear what the consequences are.
Do things get changed? Do things not get changed? Do people request for this to be changed? Do builders actually comply with it? It’s really difficult for us to say, but in my opinion, yes, I would report on it if it was only an inch tall, because it should be taller than that.
Reuben Saltzman (09:43.47)
Sure. And here’s my take on it. And by the way, you’re talking about, you know, how often do we see this? I don’t do a lot of ride-alongs, but I do do them. And within the last year, I did a new construction ride-along with someone by in the house whom I happened to know. And I specifically remember one of those kick-out flashings, they bent it at a 90 degree angle.
So the water comes down and it just hits a wall. I mean, it’s just completely flat. And we said, hey, it’s wrong, fix it. It’s supposed to be angled to divert water away from the wall, not have this big splashy splashy mess. And the builder didn’t put up any stink about it. They just fixed it. I’m assuming they went back to the builder and they fixed it. So it seems to me like this is just common sense.
And I don’t recall us ever getting any of this kind of kickback. mean, normally when we say fix it, nobody comes back to us saying, the builder said it’s fine. Huh? Yeah. Pun intended. Yes. So the way I would write this up is I’d say the, kickoff flashing is installed at a 90 degree angle and a lot of water is going to splash.
Tessa Murry (10:51.171)
Kick back on kick outs.
Eric Houseman (10:53.676)
You
Reuben Saltzman (11:11.77)
and it’s going to increase the potential for water to get inside the wall. Or the kickout flashing is very short. It’s only one inch high. Current standards say it should be four inches high. This will increase the potential for leakage into the wall. And I love phrasing it that way. I’m saying that it’s going to increase the potential for something to go wrong. Maybe…
Tessa Murry (11:33.957)
Thank
Reuben Saltzman (11:39.918)
There’s kind of an overhang and there’s only a small amount of water that’s going to ever reach it. And maybe that one inch is going to function fine. I don’t know that, but I do know it’s not as good as four inches and you’re going to increase the potential. And this is the way everybody does it. And I’d say I recommend having this corrected. If the builder wants to come back and put up this big fight about it. I mean, I’m not going to get in the middle of that. If they want to put up a stink, okay, fine. Don’t fix it.
Tessa Murry (11:53.088)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (12:10.03)
But builder, you’ve got a 10 year warranty for construction defects that are going to affect the structure. And if this leads to a problem and you got to repair a rotted wall in five years, eight years, whatever it is, you’re really going to be kicking yourself for, sorry, I’ll leave now for, for not fixing this little 50 cent piece of metal. So.
Tessa Murry (12:29.516)
Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (12:40.046)
I’m not gonna I’m not gonna fight that battle. Do you guys feel like you do the same thing?
Tessa Murry (12:43.896)
Yeah.
Tessa Murry (12:48.279)
Yeah, think, I mean, you guys all said it. just, you know, zooming out, it’s I think as an inspector, you have to decide what you think is a potential liability and how much risk you’re willing to take. Because from my perspective, you know, in Minnesota, exterior water intrusion issues can create major problems. Now, if you’re in Arizona or, you know, a drier state, maybe it’s not a big deal for you. But, you know, where we get lots of rain.
If you’ve got water getting in an exterior wall, that can be major damage. And so are you willing to take the risk of if you do not put a comment in the report about undersized kickout flashing or improperly installed kickout flashing, are you willing to eat that if it comes back to you and there’s a major problem and the homeowner says, well, you didn’t catch this issue. It’s your fault. And if you’re not willing to take that risk, then do what you said, Ruben, which is phrase it exactly as what you said. It’s there. It’s just…
not installed ideally and here’s what it would be if it was installed ideally. You’re acknowledging the issue and then you’re letting the builder take it on or not. And if the builder has a problem with it, you have at least done your job in stating that this could be a problem.
Reuben Saltzman (13:53.282)
Yeah, yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (14:04.76)
Yeah, yeah, and a recommendation to change it. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Tessa Murry (14:08.887)
Yes. Yeah. I’d rather be safe than sorry. Yeah.
Eric Houseman (14:09.738)
Yeah, think, think 10.
Yeah, I think Tessa hit the nail on the head. mean, as far as liability goes, much of what we report on as home inspectors, yes, we’re there to educate the client and educate the agent and call out these defects. But much of what we report on is to protect ourselves from a liability standpoint. And in training new home inspectors, I often have the conversation with them because they’ll ask me when we’re out on site, they’ll say, well, you what do you think? Should I put this in the report?
I always get them, encourage them to think in worst case scenario circumstances. Cause that’s how I think as a service manager, I deal with all the service inquiries. deal with the complaints. I have to think in worst case scenario. So what’s the worst thing that could happen if you don’t call this out or it doesn’t get fixed. And then as you progress through your inspection career, if you will, and you start to understand what
maybe is worth reporting on at a new construction home, isn’t worth reporting on at a hundred year old home and vice versa, you can allow your subjectivity to creep in. However, subjectivity creeping in increases your liability because you’re deciding at that point in time what’s important to you and maybe not what’s important to the client. So, caution.
with that. There’s nothing wrong with reporting on it. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong.
Reuben Saltzman (15:46.818)
Yeah. And, but I do love how you say that. What’s, and I’ve said this to a lot of new home inspectors in training. And I know I’ve, I’ve heard you, I’ve seen you write it to other home inspectors when you’re reviewing their reports, when they’re reporting on something that’s like just so piddly and it’s like, who cares? And you go back to them and you say, what’s the worst thing that could happen if nobody fixes this? And it’s like, it’s nothing.
It’s a nothing issue. And you go, well, then why am I even putting it in the report? So there’s, there’s a lot of things that I think new home inspectors report on. want to report on every little thing they see, but a lot of it just, it clutters up the report and it almost takes away from the important it’s white noise. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a, that’s something that home inspectors kind of learn.
Tessa Murry (16:34.519)
It’s white noise. Yeah. Yeah. Good point.
Reuben Saltzman (16:43.946)
as they do more and more inspections. Okay, number two on Chris’s list of things to discuss, drip caps and head flashing. And Chris writes opinions on missing drip caps very widely. And for the listeners, if anybody doesn’t know what a drip cap is, when you have a penetration in the wall, typically it’s gonna be a door.
Tessa Murry (16:46.797)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (17:12.524)
more often a window, because we got a heck of a lot more of those, you’re supposed to have a drip cap installed above the window. It’s basically a piece of metal that gets tucked up underneath the water resistant barrier, like Tyvek or whatever they happen to have, maybe a drainage mat. It gets tucked up underneath there, it gets laced in, it gets taped down, and then it comes over the top of the window and then down, and then
the siding, whatever it may be, gets installed over the drip cap. So if any water gets behind the siding, we’ve got layers to allow that water to drain out. It’s not gonna leak in around the window, which is one of the most notorious locations for water intrusion in any type of house, any age, leaking around the windows, leaking around openings. So.
Drip cap or head flashing, whatever you want to call it. It’s this bent up piece of metal. They installed them of our openings to keep water out of the wall. Okay. We’ve defined it now. So he says, opinions on them very, very widely. Some inspectors always call it out. Others only mention it when damage is present. And again, how do know damage is present? And he says builders often insist.
Tessa Murry (18:31.368)
No.
Reuben Saltzman (18:37.716)
It isn’t required. Interesting. OK, he’s got more to say, but let me pause there. Eric, Tessa, have you guys ever seen a builder tell you that you don’t need drip cap head flashing?
Tessa Murry (18:56.505)
No, but I think it just depends on probably where you live, what quality of workmanship is being done, and as we know, it varies widely from place to place and even from city to city.
Reuben Saltzman (19:00.503)
Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (19:10.892)
Yeah. Yeah. Minnesota. don’t stand for that kind of crap. We had still trip cap on new construction. Yeah. I mean, my jaw kind of hit the floor when he wrote this, like builders insisted, isn’t required. What? Yes, it is. Everybody knows that. And then he says, meanwhile, Anderson, Marvin, Geldwin and Pella along with AAMA 2400. I don’t even know what that is.
Tessa Murry (19:14.465)
you
Eric Houseman (19:17.514)
We have standards.
Reuben Saltzman (19:39.596)
must be some type of standard for installing windows, clearly include a rigid metal head flashing in their installation diagrams, even though builders routinely omitted in the field. Yes, of course the window manufacturers specify this. And then he goes on to say, real world conditions typically include windows sealed tight with no drainage gap. So we’re saying the siding comes right down tight
to the top of the window and he said sealed. So he’s saying they actually caulked it, which means if you get water that does make its way behind the siding, you’ve now made sure that the water can’t get out. Okay, that’s bad. And then he also says head flashing rarely visible, drip cap head flashing, the two terms are interchangeable. And he also says heavy reliance.
on water resistant barrier and flashing tape alone. So he’d say, I love, he says, I love your take on how to structure tech determine when missing head flashing is a defect versus simply a best practice upgrade. And when it’s not visible or present, do you mention it in your reports or is it something your team typically lets go? Eric.
Take it away.
Eric Houseman (21:07.532)
Personally, for me, I think this is bigger than number one. As far as inadequate kick out flashing, if it’s there and it’s small, okay, fine. It’s gonna do something. In this case, I would even go, again, we’re talking new construction, most new construction nowadays that we see here in Minnesota, the siding material is wood composite or fiber cement.
Reuben Saltzman (21:39.2)
Yeah, those are real common. You got a lot of vinyl too, right?
Eric Houseman (21:39.777)
Yeah.
On the on front of the house, if you’re talking about the siding mullet, it’s usually nice. The siding mullet, you know, looks good from the front and then you get vinyl on the back because it’s inexpensive, right? Yeah, exactly. It not just the window manufacturers and the door manufacturers, but the siding manufacturers for wood composite and fiber cement both indicate that there needs to be a gap.
Reuben Saltzman (21:45.838)
The siding mullet. I like that. Yeah.
Business in the front party in the back. Yep
Tessa Murry (21:55.481)
You
Eric Houseman (22:08.744)
above windows and doors with head flashing installed and it’s not caulked and it needs to be a certain size and it needs to allow drainage. This is absolutely going to lead to potential water intrusion issues and rot around the windows and doors in the walls. No question.
Tessa Murry (22:26.859)
or at least voiding the manufacturer’s warranty on things.
Eric Houseman (22:30.506)
Sure.
Reuben Saltzman (22:31.658)
Yeah, show me any modern installation instructions from Tyvek, you know, or whoever you’re using for a water resistant barrier. Show me installation instructions from a window manufacturer, from the siding manufacturer, from anybody involved in the wall assembly. And show me one that doesn’t have drip cap.
Tessa Murry (23:02.169)
Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (23:02.262)
there. You’re not going to find it. This is universal. Everybody knows how to install this. I thought this is how it’s always done in Minnesota. It’s got to be there.
Tessa Murry (23:13.337)
Like I said, mean, unless you’re in a dry state and that doesn’t ever see rain, I’d be concerned if my builder said, yeah, you don’t need this. I’m like, well, what else are you not including in this house that it should have? This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Reuben Saltzman (23:26.838)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, but you know, the manufacturers, they don’t have special instructions for dry states. This is how you do it. Yeah.
Tessa Murry (23:36.299)
No. No, they don’t. I mean, expanding this conversation to, you know, houses that are just beyond new construction, though, I think this is kind of the tricky area as a home inspector where it’s not always black and white. When do you call it out? And when do you really push for that, that it needs to be installed? And, you know, I think that’s something, again, that you kind of get more comfortable with navigating over time and experience. But from
Reuben Saltzman (23:51.222)
Yes, yes.
Tessa Murry (24:03.947)
my limited personal experience of seeing the housing stock, you know, in the Twin Cities area. To me, it really depends on kind of how that house is constructed, what the walls are made of. Is it solid wood wall sheathing with wood from 100-year-old trees or is it OSB in the wall? Is the cavity full of insulation and is there a vapor barrier in there too or is it empty and there’s no vapor barrier and any moisture that gets in can dry?
Because if you don’t have kick out or you don’t have drip flashing then you know if water gets in there How much of liability is that to the wall assembly?
Reuben Saltzman (24:43.8)
Well, and to further your point, Tess, what about overhangs? How big are the overhangs? I mean, if you’ve got missing drip cap at the windows on the second floor and you’ve got three foot overhangs and you’ve got one foot of space between the top of the window and the soffit, that ain’t never gonna get wet. Who cares that you omitted the drip cap? I mean, it’s not gonna matter. And I wouldn’t say anything about it.
Tessa Murry (24:48.247)
Yes.
Tessa Murry (25:03.785)
Exactly.
Tessa Murry (25:12.343)
Yeah. You’re taking in, I think what we’re saying is as an experienced home inspector, you get more comfortable weighing all the different variables as to whether or not this is a big risk. And so some of those things are dependent on the location of the window, location of the roof overhangs, the climate you’re living in, the type of siding you have, the wall assembly you have.
And we can’t answer that question for you, but again, as a home inspector, what liability and risk are you willing to take on by not mentioning it? And if you’re not sure, well then I’d err on the side of caution.
Reuben Saltzman (25:46.424)
Yeah. And you know, I’d say maybe if we had a continuum of the most concerning to least concerning, I’d say most concerning would be a window with a bump out and there’s absolutely no overhang protection whatsoever. And it’s whatever way the weather comes in and it’s going to get wet every time it rains. Least concerning would be the one that I already described. It’s protected by a big old overhang.
Tessa Murry (26:07.435)
Yes.
Tessa Murry (26:12.546)
Yes.
Reuben Saltzman (26:16.994)
and siding types. I’d say the most concerning for me would be either stone siding or stucco. Either one, I mean, they’re the same thing. They just have a different look. That’d be the most concerning. If I find it wrong on a stucco home, I’m the most concerned. If I find it wrong on vinyl siding, I’m probably the least concerned. Vinyl siding is probably the most forgiving. That stuff, the wall sheathing will dry out.
Tessa Murry (26:23.609)
Taco.
Reuben Saltzman (26:46.828)
within a week. I mean, if it gets wet, it does not stay wet. We do moisture testing on vinyl-sided houses, but we will not do moisture testing if it hasn’t rained within the last week, because that’s how quickly these vinyl-sided houses will dry out. so, I mean, we see it wrong a lot of the time on vinyl siding, but at the same time, I mean, even if we’re just doing a home inspection,
we can take our moisture meter and put it in the scan mode on a vinyl sided house and we can scan below those windows. And if it just, if we had a big rain yesterday, all right, we’ve got no drip cap at this vinyl siding house. It rained a bunch yesterday. I’m gonna take my moisture meter. I’m gonna scan below the window. Okay, it’s all dry. Am I gonna make a big deal about it? No. I’m gonna say, hey, there’s no drip cap. There really should be. You have an increased
potential for water to leak into the wall because there’s no drip cap. And I’m going to leave it at that. I don’t think it’s worth hiring a contractor to come out and take the siding off and redo it and tie it in with the water resistant barrier and put it all back together. The ends don’t justify the means. It’s not worth or as Eric likes to say, Eric, what’s your saying?
Tessa Murry (28:02.146)
Mm-hmm.
Eric Houseman (28:06.634)
The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
Reuben Saltzman (28:08.354)
Thank you. That’s Eric’s favorite. All right. Glad we’re on the same page there. Yes.
Tessa Murry (28:08.979)
What?
Tessa Murry (28:13.241)
That’s good. That’s good. Yeah. That’s a very practical approach, Ruben, I think. You you get a nervous homeowner and they read your report and they see that the windows don’t have kick out or don’t have drip edge or head flashing. And they’re like, is this something we need to do? Do we need to, you know, rip all the siding apart? And it’s what you just said, Ruben. mean, well, we can do some more testing to verify that it doesn’t look like you’re getting water, wind driven rain in around these windows and…
know, analyze some of these variables we talked about and trying to decide is it worth it or not. It’s not always going be yes, it’s not always going be no. And it might vary from side to side too, orientation for the house.
Reuben Saltzman (28:50.318)
Yeah, so.
Reuben Saltzman (28:55.842)
Yep. So I’m sorry, Chris. Don’t have a black and white answer for you. mean, in my mind, new construction, it’s black and white. You need it there. Existing home? Not sure. You got to look at the bigger picture. So that’s DripCap.
Eric Houseman (29:12.332)
Would that be an answer of it depends, Ruben?
Reuben Saltzman (29:16.974)
Thank you, Eric. Thank you. Yeah. We need to say that every episode or it’s not a podcast. All right. Moving on. Number three. And I don’t know, I feel like this is very similar. Horizontal trim, Z flashing, drainage gaps, and siding bottom edges. So he says, across many siding systems, I often see
Tessa Murry (29:18.337)
Save to say. I think that’s a good phrase. at that.
Reuben Saltzman (29:45.268)
no visible z flashing above horizontal or angled trim. And this is, think of what I just described for a drip cap. I mean, it’s essentially the same thing. It’s serving the same purpose. does the same thing. Number two, I often see trim sealed tightly to the siding with no drainage gap.
You guys tracking there? I’m not trim sealed tightly to the siding with no drainage gap.
Tessa Murry (30:11.437)
Mm-hmm.
Tessa Murry (30:20.695)
think again, it’s talking about like when you have horizontal trim numbers or siding transitions that there’s no, there’s no flashing over those horizontal pieces is how I’m reading it.
Reuben Saltzman (30:32.962)
And you’re taking the siding and you’re coming right down tight and you’re caulking it just like we described about windows. Okay. All right. That’s, that’s what I had in mind, but I wasn’t sure if that’s what he meant. I’m glad you guys think it’s the same. Okay. And then siding bottom sealed where clearance should exist. this Eric already touched on this. If you look at the installation instructions from say Hardy plank or LP smart side.
Tessa Murry (30:36.939)
Inclining it, Yeah.
Tessa Murry (31:00.065)
LP.
Reuben Saltzman (31:01.684)
or whatever, I’m using brand names here. If you look at their installation instructions, when the siding comes down to a window, you can’t just have the siding touching the flashing that’s coming out. You actually need a gap. And depending on the manufacturer, it’s either a quarter inch gap or a three eighths inch gap, which is a pretty big gap. And that gap is there so you don’t have water through capillary action wicking back up into the siding.
Tessa Murry (31:23.033)
Thank
Reuben Saltzman (31:29.454)
And it also creates a space because a lot of the time you’re going to have to cut the siding to fit around that opening. Now you’ve got a cut edge and now you got to get a painter to get their paint brush in there and they got to paint all of it. So it’s just one more reason that you’re supposed to have a gap. And he’s saying the siding bottoms are just coming right down tight, even sealed where you’re supposed to have clearance there. Okay. Got it. And then he goes on.
Tessa Murry (31:54.317)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (31:57.602)
to say manufacturers like James Hardy and LP, which we just mentioned, require specific details, bottom clearance, proper flashing, drainage provisions, yet real-world installations frequently ignore them. Love to hear how you guys talk about this. I don’t think our answer is any different than what we just talked about with drip caps at Windows. Just take everything we said. Ditto.
Tessa Murry (32:23.993)
Thank
Reuben Saltzman (32:26.178)
You guys have anything different to say, anything to add?
Tessa Murry (32:29.633)
No, I would just say Ruben or Eric, people that know the report comments like the back of your hand, can you just verbatim kind of say, paraphrase what StructureTech says for an issue like this? When you see it, there’s already a canned comment. You click on it. What does it say?
Reuben Saltzman (32:46.734)
All right, Eric’s looking it up. I’m going to say what it says without reading and then Eric can tell me how close I was. How about we play that game? Sound good, Eric?
Tessa Murry (32:53.144)
Okay.
This is fun. This could be a game, Ruben. We could quiz you on what you’ve written for the reports and we’ll keep track of how many you get right now.
Eric Houseman (32:56.14)
Sounds good.
Reuben Saltzman (32:57.388)
Okay, alright.
Reuben Saltzman (33:02.808)
Yeah. Yeah. And I keep in mind, I haven’t written a report for six years, so I’m a little rusty. Seven, maybe. It’s been a while. All right. I’d say the siding was brought down tight to the top of the window. The manufacturer requires a gap here to help prevent water from wicking up into the wall and causing moisture damage, but there was no gap present.
And now we’re gonna probably have two comments. One is for new construction, one is for existing homes. For the new construction, we’re gonna say, have this corrected. For existing homes, it’s probably gonna be a comment that says, this will increase the potential for water intrusion and concealed damage. And then home inspectors may have the opportunity to modify that comment if it’s a wall where it’s
you know, you got the window right at the front of the wall and there’s no overhang and it sees a lot of water, the inspector may modify that comment and say, have this corrected or maybe have intrusive moisture testing done to help verify that there is no damage inside the wall, depending on how our level of concern. So that’s my paraphrase of what it would say. Eric, let’s hear how close I was.
Tessa Murry (34:14.444)
Okay.
Eric Houseman (34:25.708)
You’re pretty close. Close enough for government work. for example, we’ll look at fiber cement. Okay. This is just one of the comments. Let’s say it’s caulked at the flashing. The siding has been caulked where it terminates above the window and other Z flashings, but this installation could allow water to be trapped behind the siding.
Reuben Saltzman (34:31.767)
It’ll work.
Tessa Murry (34:33.09)
What?
Eric Houseman (34:52.576)
have the caulking removed. For more information on this topic, click here, which is a link to one of your copious blog posts. That’s considering the flashing is there and somebody has gone and caulked it. Okay, fine, remove the caulking. But we do have other comments that say basically the same thing about Z flashing not being there, the siding coming down immediately tied to it. I mean, for me, this again, I agree with you Ruben, go back to the previous,
Tessa Murry (35:03.863)
So.
Eric Houseman (35:22.142)
number two in this email and say ditto, this one’s pretty easy to navigate because we’re talking about LP or wood composite and James Hardy or fiber cement. They have specific installation guides with visuals for those of us that don’t like to read that says above a window and a door you need this gap, it needs to have Z flashing, it cannot be caulked. It’s pretty self-explanatory.
But then again, to Tessa’s point, going back to what we were talking about with the previous one, on new construction, yeah, absolutely call it out. It needs to be fixed. It’s not correct. On anything other than new construction, now we’re talking about different siding types. We’re talking about different types of construction, overhangs. All of these things come into play. And it’s just a matter of how the house, I’ll steal verbiage from Tessa.
how the house is working as a system.
Tessa Murry (36:25.803)
I approve this message.
Eric Houseman (36:27.756)
you
Reuben Saltzman (36:28.278)
Very good. Yes.
So he had a few other comments. said he’d like to know our team approaches these commonly missed details on new construction versus older homes. think we kind of covered that. And he said, for example, is mentioning a missing kick out even worthwhile on a pre 1990s home with no related damage? What would we say, Eric?
Eric Houseman (36:57.804)
100%. Yep. Just because it hasn’t happened now and there’s no visible signs of it doesn’t mean that it’s not going to happen in the future or there isn’t hidden damage underneath. I think about the thing that just keeps replaying over and over and over in my head and we’ve all seen it is a 1970s house with masonite hardboard siding.
Reuben Saltzman (37:00.418)
Yeah. Yeah.
Eric Houseman (37:23.754)
that has the jut out for the garage and you’ve got a roof and wall intersection that doesn’t have any kick out flashing and you walk up to that siding underneath that where that kick out flashing should be and you can put your finger through the siding into the wall framing through the insulation and darn near to the interior of the home. We’ve all seen it. Most of that deterioration could have been prevented by a few dollars worth of flashing. But
Reuben Saltzman (37:39.096)
Yes.
Yes.
Eric Houseman (37:52.521)
we didn’t have those installation practices back then. I tell clients commonly because we will comment on some things where it’s like, well, we don’t do this this way anymore. So if you had it redone in the same manner, it’s going to be done differently.
Adhered masonry veneer is a great example of that. We don’t install that the same way today as we did 10 years ago, 15 years ago, because most of what we have learned about house construction is we thought that something was going to work well when we installed it in this manner. Years and decades went by and it failed and we went, oops, guess we can’t do that anymore. And we rewrote code or installation practices to reflect a better way to do it.
Home building is a gigantic case of trial and error. Through and through.
Reuben Saltzman (38:48.3)
Yep. And, and just personal story on like, okay, put my money where my mouth is. Do I actually believe this? I live in a house that, you know, the mullet house, I’ve got stucco on the front of my house, steel siding on the rest of the house. And before I bought it, I had my own company. had Antonio out and he did moisture testing on the front of the house.
There was one area that had an elevated level of moisture. wasn’t rotted, wasn’t soft. It wasn’t what we’d mark down as red in the report. It was more of a yellow. It had like 15 % moisture content in the sheathing, which is not enough to support deterioration and mold growth, but why is it wet? It shouldn’t have this level at all. It should be more like 10 to 12%. This is an elevated level.
Tessa Murry (39:30.585)
Okay.
Reuben Saltzman (39:44.136)
And it was right where Eric just described. It’s where the garage wall comes down and it meets the house wall. There was no kick out flashing stucco home. So is this important? Heck yes. And I ended up hiring a stucco contractor to come out and they had to cut out a big old section of the stucco and they needed to tie it in with the water resistant. Well, it’s tar paper is what I’ve got. They needed a tar.
Tessa Murry (39:55.091)
Mm-hmm.
Tessa Murry (39:59.799)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (40:13.688)
tie it in with the tar paper and kick it out and then patch the stucco in this big, you know, it’s this big ugly patch on the front of my house, but I paid someone to do this. I thought this is important. I don’t want my wall, my wall rotting. So I, I, I think it’s well worth the money you spend to sleep a little easier at night. Yeah, absolutely. Nope. And I, I, again, I paid for that out of my own pocket.
Tessa Murry (40:38.541)
Yeah You know not to a dead horse, but Yeah, just gonna say, know Chris specifically said is it worthwhile even on a pre 1990s home with no related damage to mention this and I’d say yes Exclamation point because some of the worst houses I’ve seen in some of the clients I deal with that have the worst mold issues and deterioration problems are pre 1990s homes. I’m thinking 70s 80s 60s
And even before that especially in the era where our location we have a lot of houses built with like a buffalo board material Which is a terrible idea. It’s even worse than OSP So I’d say just just because it’s a you know an older home doesn’t mean that it’s safe to have missing flashing details
Reuben Saltzman (41:25.836)
Yeah. So what would you say to Chris when he says, reference manufacturers requirements in my reports and I often get calls from builders or realtors saying no other inspector reports this. Why are you reporting it?
Reuben Saltzman (41:43.074)
What do we say to that?
Reuben Saltzman (41:47.054)
Wonderful? That’s what I’d say.
Eric Houseman (41:56.157)
You can’t argue with the manufacturer.
Tessa Murry (41:56.633)
Why are you different? Why are you making my job? Yeah, sorry, go ahead, Eric.
Eric Houseman (42:00.429)
You can’t argue with the manufacturer’s installation instructions. That’s what it boils down to. I mean, this is the way that they say it’s supposed to be installed. And if it’s not installed in that manner, it can lead to consequences, whether it’s weeks, months, years, or decades down the road. If you want a product to last, it has to be installed per the manufacturer installation instructions.
Reuben Saltzman (42:29.592)
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I’d say it goes back to what we said about how you’re not going to report on every situation the same. You need to look at the bigger picture. You need to say how big of a deal is this? In many cases, I’ll say, Hey, technically not done right. You got an increased potential for damage. The end. I leave it at that. There’s other times when I say, Hey, it’s not right. And you need to get it fixed. Am I always right?
Tessa Murry (42:30.68)
Yeah.
Tessa Murry (42:57.151)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (43:00.034)
I don’t know. Nobody’s ever called me on it and said, Hey, you made a soft recommendation saying there’s a chance for damage. Well, I wish you would have made a big deal about it because there was damage. I’ve never had that happen. And I’ve never had it happen where I called it out and I said, Hey, you need to fix this. And then they said, we fixed it, but there was no damage. So I didn’t need to fix it. I’ve never had either one of those come.
Tessa Murry (43:25.539)
I remember I had a house in Stillwater, an old historic house one time, and I was inspecting it for a young guy, and there was no head flashing above windows. All the gaps were caulked tightly. There was some bubbling paint, and my spidey senses were going off. like, there’s probably concealed damage behind this siding. So of course, document all of that, put all those comments in the report. No head flashing, caulked.
Potential moisture damage concealed moisture damage have this wall inspected inspected for Concealed damage and repair as needed He bought the house like a year later was doing remodeling came across all this damage in the wall and He got mad at me. Why did you not tell me all this damage was there? This cost me tens of thousands of dollars to fix so
That being said, okay, to my point of, know, it’s always assess your liability as a home inspector. If you’re worried that there could be an issue at any point down the road and you don’t want it coming back to you, well, put the comment in the report about it. Because even when you put the comment in the report, sometimes it’s still not enough to satisfy people. What else can you say?
Reuben Saltzman (44:40.718)
Yep. All right. Well, I hope we gave you some good insight and for any other home inspectors who deal with the same stuff. And I think every home inspector deals with the same stuff. These are always the decisions that we need to make on everything we report on. I hope we gave you a little bit of insight on how we deal with it. Again, doesn’t make it right, but we’ve been doing it this way for a long time. And most of the time it doesn’t come back to us.
But not
Tessa Murry (45:13.817)
You know, I was just going to add one more thing, Ruben. What’s your opinion on how StructureTech has handled the pushback from real estate agents and builders that we are deal killers? Because again, as we’re discussing this, I mean, we’re commenting on a lot of things that other inspectors may not. They might just breeze right past it. They don’t want to ruffle feathers. They don’t think it’s a big deal. They haven’t had any callbacks.
that have resulted in lawsuits at this point in their careers, so they’re not putting these things in. How would you say you have made a space in the home inspection market owning this label as, quote, deal killers?
Reuben Saltzman (45:57.602)
Well, I hate even saying that I own it. I don’t like the idea of that. I think most of the time when a deal falls apart, it’s because you’ve got real estate agents who don’t know how to do their job right. They didn’t properly qualify their clients at the beginning. They’re not doing negotiations right later on. I mean, I’ve got another story that, gosh, I want to tell and we don’t have time for, but Eric, you know the one where
there was, there was like bat poop in the attic and they were saying, it’s not bad poop. And, we ended up removing one nail from a joist hanger to say that it was wrong. And then the, the buyer’s agent was like, yeah, that’s fantastic. But then later on the buyer’s agent went to the seller’s agent and said, yeah, they absolutely shouldn’t have done it. That’s totally wrong. No home inspector should do it. And then Eric called him. He’s like, why would you tell them that?
Eric Houseman (46:38.537)
you
Reuben Saltzman (46:57.196)
And the agent said, I’m going to tell them anything they want to hear. I’m trying to save this deal from falling apart. So hell yeah. I threw you guys under the bus. I mean, he said it to Eric’s face. All right. I, I, I said, I wasn’t going to tell the story, but I’m telling the story. My point is, I think a lot of the deal killer stuff comes from agents, just not knowing how to negotiate this stuff. And the people who don’t know how to figure any of this out basically just don’t work with us.
Tessa Murry (47:05.901)
Tessa Murry (47:09.832)
my god.
Reuben Saltzman (47:26.918)
And the people who do do work with us and they’ve been working with us for decades and they don’t have deals fall apart. We don’t change our inspections whatsoever for those people. We do the exact same home inspection. They just know how to deal with problems that we find and they don’t want to negotiate it and they know how to coach their clients through it. So for the haters out there, the people who say, you know, your deal killers, it’s like, I can’t change their mind. I’ve, I’ve given up. There’s some people who just.
They don’t want to work with us. yeah. And, you know, the one thing I will own is I think
Tessa Murry (47:59.011)
can’t win everyone over.
Reuben Saltzman (48:07.928)
Home inspectors can have poor bedside manner sometimes. And I’d like to think that the people on our team are very good at it. We’ve gotten better and better over the years. You get a home inspector who’s making faces and, you know, running around saying, the sky’s falling down. You don’t have kick out flashing. Your wall is gonna rot. And they got these big wide eyes. They’re like, this is serious. Okay. You’re being a deal killer. That’s bad bedside manner. I mean, there is such a thing. You gotta have tact.
Tessa Murry (48:28.032)
sorry.
Reuben Saltzman (48:37.41)
You gotta know how to present this stuff. I don’t know. I don’t know if I answered your question right or not.
Tessa Murry (48:40.503)
Yeah, yeah. No, you did, Ruben. I think just to kind of further your point and expand on just a little bit, taking a step back, getting to know other home inspection companies from other parts of the country, you know, meeting inspectors that work in big cities for large multi inspector companies versus the one man show in a smaller town. I’d say it’s a challenge of figuring out where your place is in the market.
and how you’re gonna be. And Ruben, luckily you have stuck to your guns. You’ve decided, okay, we wanna offer a quality inspection, a thorough inspection. It’s our job to educate the buyer on what they’re getting. And you have made a reputation in the Twin Cities area and across the country for doing a thorough job and being ethical, I believe.
And that works because we have, you know, a larger pool. We’ve got a big market where there are going to be people out there, even though there’s, you know, there’s always going to be agents that maybe don’t have the experience to handle, you know, lots of issues and home inspection reports aren’t as ethical. we have enough people in the metro area that support a business model like the one you’ve created.
And I’ve seen smaller towns where there’s one home inspector, that’s all the business that it can support. And all the local real estate agents use that home inspector because he cooperates with them and doesn’t ruffle feathers and doesn’t create issues on their sales. And so I think this is the challenging part. know, Chris, wherever you’re located, what your market is like, if you care about quality, you want to be true to yourself. You’re all about educating the homeowner.
Reuben Saltzman (50:22.665)
Yes.
Yes.
Tessa Murry (50:37.645)
you probably are going to piss off some people along the way. And hopefully you have enough people that value your services that you can remain busy and profitable.
Reuben Saltzman (50:46.872)
Yes, very well put, Tess. We’re not going to do any better than that.
Eric Houseman (50:47.028)
Yeah, Very, yeah, very, very well put. I think that we’ve done, I think that there’s some things that we’ve done over the years to kind of pull back on the whole deal killer side of things. I mean, when I was originally trained in, Tessa, you trained me, we had people there the entire time. I think that for a lot of people, that was very overwhelming, right? Because
Tessa Murry (51:07.298)
Yeah.
Eric Houseman (51:11.904)
We’re people, we’re home inspectors. We find something interesting and we’ve got our camera out and we’re clicking our camera away and we make comments to ourselves. It’s going to throw people off when they see us taking a whole bunch of photos and it’s gonna elevate their level of anxiety. And I think that the ability to have time alone in the house, which we changed around COVID time and their clients aren’t there with us the entire time anymore. They can if they wanna be.
Tessa Murry (51:36.181)
Thank
Eric Houseman (51:41.515)
But we leave time for the inspector to do the inspection, gather their thoughts, put together a good cohesive wrap up with the client and give them a good presentation of the high level stuff and explain what the report is gonna look like. I feel like that has fought back the deal killer mentality quite a bit. The bedside manner, it’s a constant topic of conversation. And…
Reuben Saltzman (52:00.194)
Yep, yep, totally.
Eric Houseman (52:06.58)
to just another point about what Rubin was making with real estate agents and knowing your client, I find that it is very, very difficult to figure out what someone’s pain tolerance is. You don’t know if first time home buyers have a very different pain tolerance than someone who’s, is their 10th house. Somebody who works in the trades,
Tessa Murry (52:31.033)
Okay.
Eric Houseman (52:34.09)
has a much higher pain tolerance than somebody that’s an IT professional. And I’m not knocking anybody. It’s a matter of what is important to you and what do you think is a big deal as a potential homeowner. It varies widely based on experience. And we have no way of knowing that. None. So all we do is just report on the facts and
Tessa Murry (52:34.489)
Thank you.
Tessa Murry (52:52.633)
Mm-hmm.
Tessa Murry (52:59.01)
Yeah.
Tessa Murry (53:02.453)
And I think, yeah.
Eric Houseman (53:02.976)
Someone’s pain tolerance is generally what kills the deal. It’s not the presentation, because the presentation is the same.
Tessa Murry (53:06.807)
Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (53:11.32)
We should try. Yeah.
Tessa Murry (53:11.499)
Yeah. Yeah, to your point, Ruben, knowing your client is key to, I think, being a successful home inspector because you have to be able to translate what you’re seeing, the condition of the house, in a way that makes sense to them and give them some context. So if you can do that in a successful way, you’re less likely
to be considered a deal killer, I think.
Reuben Saltzman (53:41.678)
Yeah, for sure.
Tessa Murry (53:44.515)
Yeah.
Eric Houseman (53:44.844)
Yeah, open up the conversation before the inspection. That was another thing we started doing is.
Reuben Saltzman (53:51.714)
Mm-hmm
Eric Houseman (53:52.244)
Texting the client ahead of the inspection. What are your concerns? Do you have you know questions about the home inspection process? Some of our inspectors myself included when I was actively inspecting I would reach out to the buyer’s agent ahead of time What have you gone through with this client? Who is this person? Have you looked at 70 houses or have you looked at seven because those are very very different clients in very different situations The more, you know
Reuben Saltzman (54:17.678)
Yes.
Eric Houseman (54:19.146)
the better the rapport you’re going to build, the less likely that you’re going to have a complaint down the road.
Reuben Saltzman (54:23.928)
Yep, yep, so true.
Tessa Murry (54:24.297)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Well, Chris, hopefully we answered some of your questions.
Reuben Saltzman (54:31.362)
Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. Well, for any of the listeners out there, if you got thoughts on any of the stuff that we discussed, got opinions that you wanna share. Hey, you guys missed the mark on this. You’re totally wrong. Share it with us. We’d love to hear from you. Like I said at the beginning, these are our opinions. Doesn’t mean we’re right, but hope we gave some insight into what we do. And we’ve been doing it for quite a while and it’s worked pretty well for us so far.
I’m Ruben Saltzman with StructureTech and you can reach us at podcast, email us podcast at structuretech.com and we’ll catch you next time. Take care.