To watch a video version of this podcast, click here: https://youtu.be/vi0mEQemsck
In this episode of the Structure Talk podcast, hosts Reuben Saltzman and Tessa Murry sit down with Gene Myers, founder and CEO of Thrive Home Builders in Denver, Colorado. Gene shares his journey from land developer to one of the most forward-thinking builders in the country, known for creating high-performance, net-zero energy homes. The conversation explores the environmental impact of building materials—especially concrete—the importance of operational and embodied carbon, and how builders can balance sustainability with affordability. Gene also discusses innovative building practices, including fiberglass foundations, solar energy strategies, and the importance of building homes that serve both people and the planet.
Here’s the link to Inspector Empire Builder: https://www.iebcoaching.com/events
To check Gene’s company, click here: https://thrivehomebuilders.com/
Takeaways
Gene Myers transitioned from land development to home building during the savings and loan crisis.
Thrive Home Builders focuses on net-zero energy homes that are resilient, healthy, and sustainable.
Net-zero homes produce as much energy as they consume annually, often using solar panels and battery storage.
Concrete has one of the highest carbon footprints among building materials due to its production and transportation.
Fiberglass foundation panels offer a promising alternative to concrete, with lower carbon impact and faster installation.
Operational carbon (energy used to run a home) typically outweighs embodied carbon (carbon from materials and construction) over a home’s lifetime.
Gene emphasizes a rigorous cost-benefit analysis to ensure sustainability is attainable for everyday homebuyers.
Partnerships with national labs and programs like Energy Star and DOE’s Zero Energy Ready Home are key to Thrive’s success.
Builders should avoid “shiny new objects” unless they are cost-effective and scalable.
Municipalities with climate action plans may value sustainable builders more than individual consumers.
Building a strong, meaningful brand has long-term benefits and helps attract talent and opportunities.
Chapters
00:00 – Introduction and Sponsors
01:32 – Guest Introduction: Gene Myers
03:08 – Gene’s Journey from Land Developer to Builder
04:43 – What is a Net-Zero Energy Home?
06:11 – Building Homes that Serve Communities
07:48 – Advice for Builders: Don’t Go It Alone
10:16 – Leveraging Energy Star and DOE Programs
12:11 – First Net-Zero Home and Choosing Solar Over Geothermal
13:48 – Solar Leasing Options Explained
15:45 – Balancing Sustainability with Cost
19:29 – Why Thrive Avoids Geothermal and SIPs
21:27 – The Carbon Footprint of Concrete
25:00 – Fiberglass Foundation Panels as an Alternative
28:08 – Operational vs. Embodied Carbon
31:53 – Using OneClick LCA for Carbon Calculations
33:26 – Offsetting Carbon Locally in Breckenridge
35:47 – Municipalities vs. Consumers: Who Values Sustainability More?
39:30 – What Thrive Homes Look Like
TRANSCRIPTION
The following is an AI-generated transcription from an audio recording. Although the transcription is mostly accurate, it will contain some errors due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Reuben Saltzman: Welcome to my house. Welcome to the Structure Talk podcast, a production of Structure Tech Home Inspections. My name is Reuben Saltzman. I’m your host alongside building science geek, Tessa Murry. We help home inspectors up their game through education, and we help homeowners to be better stewards of their houses. We’ve been keeping it real on this podcast since 2019, and we are also the number one home inspection podcast in the world, according to my mom.
Reuben Saltzman (00:01.238)
Welcome back, Tessa. Great to see you. We are on our second segment of the home building series that you are lining up. Can’t wait. We’ve got another guest on. We’ve been teasing this for a while, but first quick shout out to our sponsors, IEB, Inspector Empire Builder. Last week we were talking about the upcoming conference. It’s going to be the mastermind where we’re going to be doing all the planning for 2026, but got another announcement.
We’re already thinking about what’s going on mid year 26, save the date. And this is for IEB Unite. This is the big one for IEB. This is the biggest conference we always have every year. And this one is happening March 4th through the 6th. And this is going to be in Orlando, not too far from Utah. Maybe we’ll catch you there, maybe not.
Tessa Murry (00:55.125)
hey.
Reuben Saltzman (00:59.746)
the big focus this year, the slogan, the pitch, we’re calling it the industry’s big tent. Culture, connection, and the playbooks behind scaling inspection companies. So it’s all about growing your home inspection company. I will have a link to IEB in our show notes. If you want more information, check it out. And let’s bring out our guest, Tessa. We’ve got a special guest on today, someone you met recently.
Tessa Murry (01:23.2)
Let’s do it.
Reuben Saltzman (01:28.738)
Well, not let me you take it away. Introduce, guess, please.
Tessa Murry (01:32.155)
Thanks, Ruben. I have the honor of introducing Gene Myers. He’s a builder out in Denver, Colorado. I am so honored to have met you and to have some of your time to chat with you at the EBA conference that was in St. Paul last month. I think Gene is one of the most respected and forward thinking builders, I’ll say, in the country. Correct me if I’m wrong, Gene, but…
I think that’s safe to say he’s the founder and CEO of Thrive Home Builders, like I said, in Denver. It’s a company known for leading the way in high performance, healthy, net zero energy homes. Long before those terms were mainstream at all. And under your leadership, Thrive has earned national recognition for innovation, sustainability and design, including multiple U.S. Department of Energy Housing Innovation Awards and National Housing Quality Awards.
And I think what’s remarkable about Gene is that you’re not just building efficient houses, you’re rethinking what it means to create homes that truly serve people and the planet. And we’re excited to hear your perspective on where home building is headed, the lessons you’ve learned out in Colorado, and share with us just your wisdom from today. So welcome to the show, Gene. We’re happy to have you on.
Gene Myers (02:44.816)
Well, thanks for having me.
Tessa Murry (02:47.24)
Reuben Saltzman (02:47.83)
Yeah, coming off of our discussion last week with Sam, I’m really interested in what Gene is doing in this world.
Tessa Murry (02:51.306)
Yeah.
Tessa Murry (02:57.83)
Me too. Gene, okay, where should we start Gene? tell us tell our listeners, how did you get started in this industry as a builder? Give us a little background on you.
Gene Myers (03:08.23)
Well, I got into it out of self-defense. I was a land developer and in our multiple ups and down cycles, you have to figure out what to do with lots. And so we decided to become a home builder to get rid of our lots. So that was way, way back in the savings and loan crisis.
So then I went on my own in 1992 in October. So this is 33 years this month that I’ve been on my own.
Tessa Murry (03:41.044)
Wow. Congratulations. Wow, and how far you’ve come since that time. Did you ever think that you would be where you’re at today?
Reuben Saltzman (03:41.346)
No.
Reuben Saltzman (03:44.867)
time.
Gene Myers (03:51.844)
I really never imagined that it would be possible on a production basis to build homes that power themselves, to be perilously close to cutting the cord on the grid, to do what we’ve been able to do on resilience and on indoor air quality. And I didn’t see those things coming. you know, I honestly think
Tessa Murry (04:16.053)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (04:18.542)
You get up every morning, you take one day at a time and you just do your best and it’s amazing where it’ll take you. So I’d love to tell you it was a grand plan, but I didn’t see it coming.
Tessa Murry (04:28.448)
Good question.
Reuben Saltzman (04:29.388)
So you talk about cutting the cord. I know what you’re talking about, but for anybody who’s not in the industry, can you do a little bit of explanation on what that means exactly?
Gene Myers (04:43.258)
Well, that’s referring to net zero energy houses. And, you know, maybe an easy way to describe it is that if you put solar panels on the roof, figuratively speaking, your meter runs backwards. so over a period of a year, that meter on a net zero energy house would end up where it started using no net energy over the course of a year. And so it’s really
Reuben Saltzman (04:59.118)
Hmm.
Tessa Murry (05:10.316)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (05:13.626)
We need that grid until we are able to take advantage of the advancement in battery technology. so we did a pro builder magazine idea home that just has almost enough batteries to just not even need that connection. But I just, as I say, if you told me 33 years ago, that’s where we would be.
Tessa Murry (05:38.154)
Sure.
Gene Myers (05:43.302)
Now I would have been very skeptical.
Reuben Saltzman (05:46.744)
Hmm.
Tessa Murry (05:48.138)
You know, Gene, from going from a land developer to a high-performance home building contractor, like what inspired you to build differently than what was being done mainstream? you know, like building net zero, that is not something that just someone starting, you know, building for the very first time is going to say, hey, I’m going to do this. Very few do. So what inspired you to build differently?
Gene Myers (06:11.93)
Well, you know, way, way back when we first started building, Denver was in a big growth spurt and there was actually a moratorium on building permits in a lot of the suburbs and growth was really seen as a negative thing. Traffic impacts and so there was a big no growth movement then. And I thought, well, I’d like for my company to be a part of the solution rather than part of the.
and to be an asset, for our homes to be an asset to the communities where we build. And that was really the nexus of, so how would you go about doing that? How would you go about, rather than just being the big bad builder, how would you go from that to really, we built shelter for people. And
Tessa Murry (06:55.584)
Thank
Tessa Murry (07:08.533)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (07:09.38)
That’s not an inherently bad thing. I think that’s an inherently noble thing. And how could we do it in a way that would really not only enhance the community where we build, but also enhance the lives of our customers? So that’s really where it started.
Tessa Murry (07:23.68)
You saw a need and you wanted to fill it. What would you say is your key to success building in an efficient, sustainable, healthy way? How have you been able to do that effectively and successfully? Because I think so many builders struggle with just building a standard house that meets code.
Gene Myers (07:48.164)
Well, and I have great respect for builders.
just because I know how hard it is just to, as I say, keep the airplane in the air. I think you just had Sam Rashkin on and a joke that I’ve shared with Sam over many years is Sam, it’s hard enough to keep the airplane in the air and you’re asking us to do loop-de-loops in that airplane with customer support. And therefore, you know, have a little respect for how difficult the challenge that you’re asking these builders to do really is.
And one of the reasons I have great respect for that is that I know a small builder is signing personally on every house. I know that every house could take them down. I understand that risk. I’ve been there. And so I never looked down on or belittle a builder that’s just building to code because, and particularly, you know, some of the really big builders in our market.
Tessa Murry (08:23.995)
Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (08:35.118)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (08:51.878)
are meeting that shelter need at a lower cost than we could ever do it. But the advice that I would give that builder who wants to take it up a notch is to don’t go it alone. And that’s a challenge when you’re just starting out and you can feel very alone. You’re the one signing individually on that loan. You’re the one interacting with that customer.
Tessa Murry (08:56.532)
Thank you.
Gene Myers (09:20.934)
It can be kind of a lonely situation, but what really has helped us is to come together with builders like us. And so you mentioned our meeting at EVA, that’s the Energy and Environmental Building Alliance. That is the conference for builders like us. And you were talking about earlier, Ruben, about how it’s kind of a small world for…
Tessa Murry (09:39.456)
Thank
Mm-hmm.
Gene Myers (09:47.008)
a home inspection podcast. It’s a small world for high-performance builders. There were only like 60 builders in the room at that conference. It was a bigger conference than that because we have a big ecosystem. those are the cream of the crop around the country, and that’s where we went for learning. so, EBA has training, regional training events all over the country.
Reuben Saltzman (09:56.493)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (10:16.006)
They had the summit that was in St. Paul a few weeks ago. And then the programs have really helped us and they’re under threat right now in the Trump administration, but Energy Star was a huge help to us as we were getting on our feet. And so we started off in Energy Star and then that advanced version after version after version, think we’re on like…
Energy Star Next Gen, which is the one after Energy Star 3.2. And then we were an early adopter of the DOE Zero Energy Ready Home Program back when Sam Brashkin took the leap from Energy Star over to DOE Zero Energy Ready. And what that gets you is all of the support from the Building America Program, the wisdom from the National Laboratory. So I have Brett Singer on speed dial.
Tessa Murry (10:51.348)
Bye!
Tessa Murry (11:03.144)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (11:16.132)
who’s probably from the Lawrence Berkeley National Labs. He’s probably the leading expert on indoor air quality on our kind of homes. And I have Achilles’ cariogiogeus on speed dial up at NREL. And so for a small builder to be able to access such amazing expertise, and it’s free, you know, it’s from the Department of Energy or from Energy Star.
Tessa Murry (11:42.1)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (11:45.026)
And so I’ve always been puzzled over my entire career. Why don’t more builders take advantage of that? And I think it’s probably a bandwidth issue where you’re just so busy putting out fires that it’s really hard to look beyond that. But I’ll keep rambling if you want me to. So we were embarking on our very first Net Zero Energy Home.
Tessa Murry (12:02.036)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (12:11.29)
We thought we’d just do it as a demonstration home. I think this was back in 2009. And here we are in Denver. And the National Renewable Energy Lab is here. It’s in Golden, which is a suburb of Denver. And I thought, maybe I should get to know those guys. And so I dialed up and found somebody. And I started asking basic questions. Well, so if we were going to do net zero energy, how would we do it? Should we be looking at?
Tessa Murry (12:28.96)
Thank
Gene Myers (12:40.782)
residential windmills for producing energy. What about geothermal? What about heat pumps? And the advice I got very early on was don’t put anything in your house that a person who won’t change their furnace filters can’t maintain. And so that’s where we got committed to PV solar.
Tessa Murry (13:04.039)
Oof.
Gene Myers (13:08.91)
because there are no moving parts. Most of them are monitored by, you know, we started off doing prepaid 20 year leases on those systems. And so those were being monitored by the actual owner of the system. So the homeowner really didn’t have to do anything in order to ensure that that power generation was actually happening on their rooftop. So.
Tessa Murry (13:37.738)
So.
Reuben Saltzman (13:37.902)
What’s the?
Gene Myers (13:39.35)
Anyway, those deep resources are things that I would advise builders to take advantage of.
Reuben Saltzman (13:45.826)
What’s a prepaid 20 year lease?
Tessa Murry (13:46.048)
Thank you.
Gene Myers (13:48.496)
Well, so there’s only one company left that actually does them. There have been two big bankruptcies in the last year with solar companies, but Sunrun still offers these. And so there are two ways to do, there really three ways to do rooftop solar. One is by the system.
Reuben Saltzman (13:56.942)
Okay.
Tessa Murry (14:09.554)
Thank you.
Gene Myers (14:09.653)
And you own it and then you get the benefit of all the power that it produces. A second way to do it, which at the beginning was when solar was much more expensive, was a lot cheaper than that was prepay a lease, bake that into the price of the house. And the homeowner gets 100 % of the power that that produces over that 20 years.
Tessa Murry (14:35.392)
Okay.
Gene Myers (14:35.832)
And my theory was that it kept that upfront cost down, which helped us be attainable for customers. And then in 20 years, the technology would be so much better. You might want that relic off your roof and go for something a little bit more modern. And then the third way is called a power purchase agreement, where, or a zero down lease where, and we’ve done this with affordable housing that we’ve done in the past where
Tessa Murry (14:50.816)
Mm-hmm.
Gene Myers (15:03.866)
that no upfront cost a company like Sunrun will put solar on the roof. Then you just buy the portion of the power that that produces. The homeowner buys that at a reduced rate from Sunrun. And so those are the three ways to get a solar on.
Tessa Murry (15:19.136)
Hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (15:24.352)
Okay, got it.
Tessa Murry (15:25.408)
So, Gene, would you say that, you know, how have you figured out then, I guess, bigger picture, how to balance your sustainability high performance goals with just the realities of the costs and market pressures and consumer expectations?
Gene Myers (15:45.86)
You know, you mentioned we’ve won a lot of grand awards for housing innovation. And I’ve often said, we’re not really innovators. We’re early adopters. And the innovation is really happening out there with the manufacturers and at the national labs. And what we’ve been doing is being an early adopter of that innovation that is happening elsewhere.
Tessa Murry (16:05.728)
Yes.
Gene Myers (16:14.768)
We’re a small builder. have like 20 people right now and we don’t have an R &D department and we don’t have the resources to go do original research on how do you go about this. And so that’s where leaning on those programs and on industry partnerships have also been a really big part of our history. But
Tessa Murry (16:15.808)
you
Gene Myers (16:43.718)
And I’ll add also that being an early adopter, you don’t want to turn your homeowners into lab rats. You you don’t want to experiment on your customers, which is why having the backing of the national labs and the backing of the programs and the depth of understanding of building science that we get through the training at IBA and places like that, that’s how we try to protect against that.
Tessa Murry (16:52.127)
Right.
Gene Myers (17:13.742)
And I don’t know, I may have forgotten your question, Tessa, so.
Tessa Murry (17:13.952)
Hmm.
Well, no, I think that kind of hits on it. What would you say? So, I mean, it sounds like you’re using the support of kind of all these research programs that are out there and these government programs and these incentives that already exist. And you’re working hand in hand with other builders kind of going through this process as well. So you can find rebates for homeowners and other programs that basically make it affordable to live in one of these houses that’s a higher performance home, it sounds like.
Gene Myers (17:47.12)
Well, yes. And honestly, what I think we have done that maybe is unique and the innovation has been just a very rigorous cost benefit approach to the available technologies that are out there. So we’re constantly being hit up by manufacturers with a shiny new product. I call them shiny new objects, which we are prone to being distracted by.
shiny new objects. But we try to resist that because almost always those things aren’t cost effective. And our customers, we don’t build one off crazy off grid houses for rich people. That is not our market. Our market is everyday people. And in Denver right now, we are almost exclusively building first time home buyer townhouse.
Reuben Saltzman (18:17.879)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (18:47.431)
And so we have to have this almost ruthless approach towards the cost versus the benefit of what our customers will do. And it’s creating a value proposition that everyday people can actually afford. And so that’s where, if there’s one thing that we’ve maybe that has been innovative, it’s just been this really rigorous cost-benefit approach.
Tessa Murry (18:48.736)
Peace.
Tessa Murry (19:13.962)
It’s.
Gene Myers (19:16.0)
to be able to make high performance homes attainable for everyday people.
Tessa Murry (19:23.105)
Can you dive into that more? Sorry to interrupt you. What is an example of that? What do you do that actually makes it cost-benefit?
Gene Myers (19:29.838)
Well, you know, I’ll use an example. Just within the last year, a large builder here in Denver has committed to doing geothermal. We looked at geothermal and said, that’s not going to work. It’s too expensive. I mean, it’s a great technology. I have another one for you. Structural insulated panel systems. They’re called SIPs. Where you build, it’s like an ice cream sandwich. You build with a panel.
Tessa Murry (19:44.714)
chance.
Gene Myers (19:58.874)
where the cookie part is OSB and the ice cream part is foam. It’s a great system. The first house I ever built was a SIPs house. They are too expensive. And everybody around the country will say, why aren’t you using SIPs? It’s because our customers can’t afford SIPs. That’s why. I love SIPs. It’s not that I have a problem with SIPs panels. And so those are just examples where
Tessa Murry (20:07.776)
So.
Tooth.
Tessa Murry (20:19.904)
Cheers.
Gene Myers (20:28.878)
you have to be really, first of all, you have to know what your costs are. And that is actually maybe the biggest fitfall of a small builder is that they’ll dive into something without really understanding what the costs are. And then secondly, don’t go after that shiny new object if it will push you beyond what a customer can afford.
Tessa Murry (20:36.062)
Mm-hmm.
Tessa Murry (20:56.128)
it.
Gene Myers (20:58.116)
You know, we had a situation in our Breckenridge project. We’re doing a project in a ski town and it’s, I hesitate to call it affordable housing, but I’ll call it workforce housing. And, the town really, really, one wanted us to take a look at a geothermal. I’m like, why, you know, we’re already getting to net zero energy at a lower cost. Why would you do that? And.
Tessa Murry (21:21.364)
you
Gene Myers (21:27.952)
They finally saw the light, but it’s just really tempting to get attracted by that latest new thing. You know, people say, well, what about 3D printing of houses? I’m sorry, 3D printing of houses is a sideshow. We’re squeezing toothpaste tubes of concrete out into the perimeter walls of a house. Concrete has the worst carbon footprint of any product that we build with.
Tessa Murry (21:28.628)
Thanks.
Tessa Murry (21:39.142)
Thank you.
Gene Myers (21:58.074)
The answer cannot be, however you apply it, it cannot be building houses out of concrete if we want to address climate change. And so just, you know, coming back to reality and don’t try not to get distracted and be aware of what the costs really are. And it comes down to not just first costs. Is that brand new product, does it have a distributor here in Denver?
Reuben Saltzman (22:08.246)
Hmm.
Tessa Murry (22:26.228)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (22:26.458)
Does it have somebody that will back it up in warranty? What happens when something goes wrong with our customers? If we have the only one of those in Colorado, it is not a good thing. And so it just takes discipline to just, you know, we want to build the house as a system is extremely innovative. But my dream is just to build it out of Home Depot because that’s how we will make it.
Tessa Murry (22:33.8)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Tessa Murry (22:53.853)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (22:54.115)
Mm.
Gene Myers (22:55.952)
cost effective for everyday people.
Reuben Saltzman (22:58.284)
Yeah. Can you just a couple things there? One, how is concrete, how does that have such a huge carbon footprint? This is new to me. What?
Tessa Murry (22:58.368)
Mm.
Gene Myers (23:10.232)
Well, so concrete is made up of three components, water, gravel, and cement.
Reuben Saltzman (23:19.285)
Uh-huh.
Gene Myers (23:19.994)
So cement is made by baking limestone at very high temperatures, like over 1,000 degrees. So the embedded energy in a bag of cement is already super high. And people will say, well, what about green cement? Well, green cement is they augment the actual cement with fly ash from a coal-fired power
Reuben Saltzman (23:28.887)
Okay.
Reuben Saltzman (23:34.958)
I see.
Gene Myers (23:50.17)
Well, I’m not really interested in using a by-product of a coal-fired power plant to in theory bring my, what was the carbon footprint of that? And so that’s number one. Number two, gravel and cement and water in a truck are really heavy. And so the amount of energy it takes to get it from the plant to the house is also additional embodied carbon. And you know, I’m going to probably get this wrong.
Reuben Saltzman (24:01.526)
Hmm.
Tessa Murry (24:01.705)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (24:19.738)
But I want to say that if you take the carbon footprint of the cement production of the world, it’s the third biggest carbon footprint in the world, is the concrete industry. And I might get that, maybe it’s fourth, don’t hold me to another, it’s a lot.
Reuben Saltzman (24:32.738)
Wow, I had no idea.
Reuben Saltzman (24:38.926)
But it’s really high. Okay. I never appreciated how much it took to make concrete.
Gene Myers (24:45.624)
Yeah. So the number one thing that we need to do in our homes is minimize that use. So in this idea home that we built up in Breckenridge for ProBuilder Magazine, it has a fiberglass foundation. And it was done.
Tessa Murry (24:46.026)
Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (25:00.504)
What? I’ve never heard of a fiberglass foundation. Tell me more.
Gene Myers (25:05.37)
Well, so that’s one of those shiny new objects that for an idea home, now I have to admit we haven’t done this for our production homes yet, but I will do this again. But for this pro builder idea home, it’s like, what do we do to minimize the carbon footprint of concrete? And so there’s a company.
Tessa Murry (25:20.618)
Thank
Gene Myers (25:29.91)
Now, think I just heard Tessa must be somewhere in Florida, but from where Tessa came from up in the upper Midwest, there’s a Florida, there’s a company up in Wisconsin, in Eagle River, Wisconsin, that builds fiberglass foundation panels. And the system is called Epidemi.
Tessa Murry (25:51.029)
Huh.
Gene Myers (25:55.622)
A lot of people mispronounce it. It sure looks like epitome, but it’s epitome fiberglass foundation panels. And it’s the repurposing of a product that is actually a commodity product in the RV industry where in Indiana, they extrude these panels. They’re like a SIPs panel, but instead of OSB, they have fiberglass sheets.
bonded to foam and then they stiffened that with fiberglass 2x4s. so actually stronger in compression than concrete, a much lighter weight, cost neutral, it didn’t cost any more, goes in in all kinds of weather and no forms and the speed with which that can go in, this was a huge foundation for a
Tessa Murry (26:26.708)
Sure.
Gene Myers (26:52.238)
almost 7,000 square foot single story house. And it went in in a day and a half. And so I think it has great promise.
Tessa Murry (26:56.49)
Cheers.
my gosh.
Reuben Saltzman (27:03.907)
Hmm.
Tessa Murry (27:04.244)
How long have these panels been around for?
Gene Myers (27:07.464)
they’ve been using an RV forever. And this company has installed thousands and thousands of these foundations. So we did not feel that it was experimental. And we’ve had a longstanding industry partnership with Owens Corning and Owens Corning is the one that actually introduced us to the
Tessa Murry (27:16.895)
Yeah.
Tessa Murry (27:25.948)
Wow. That’s very interesting, Gene. Yeah, I haven’t heard of that product before. And you know, we’ve seen some permanent wood foundations up in, you know, Minnesota and, you know, it’s something other than concrete. using wood as a foundation, burying it in dirt, wet dirt doesn’t ever seem like a good idea to me. So this seems like a safer idea. Fiberglass. Yeah. Yeah. that’s very interesting.
Reuben Saltzman (27:27.159)
Yeah, wow.
Gene Myers (27:45.07)
It gives me the creeps.
Reuben Saltzman (27:48.366)
Okay, so you don’t do those. Okay. All right.
Tessa Murry (27:55.325)
go ahead, Ruben. You’ve got a question. See your face.
Reuben Saltzman (27:56.748)
No, Tessie, your questions are better. I’m just more curious. I’ve got like a million little questions. You’ve got the big thinking questions. Yours are better.
Tessa Murry (28:00.136)
No. Yes, go ahead. No, please do. Ask your little questions and then maybe I’ll follow up with a big one.
Reuben Saltzman (28:08.286)
Okay. All right. So you’re talking about carbon footprint and something that I thought about right away when you were first talking about building with solar panels and you talked about houses using batteries and I’ve heard a lot about the carbon footprint of the batteries that we use and about the solar panels. Can you talk about what that looks like?
Gene Myers (28:32.922)
Well, so the best, and by the way, I’m not a PhD and I’m not a, you know, I didn’t write the software for how to calculate a carbon footprint. I’m a builder, but I’ll give you the builder answer. Okay.
Reuben Saltzman (28:45.058)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I’m sure it’ll be plenty more than I know.
Tessa Murry (28:48.672)
That’s perfect.
Gene Myers (28:51.376)
There are two buckets of carbon that we need to worry about. One’s called operational carbon. That is the emissions associated with the power needed to run the house.
Reuben Saltzman (29:05.912)
Got it. Yep.
Gene Myers (29:07.546)
So if you’re in Canada and all your electricity is hydro, there’s almost no carbon footprint for that power. So it doesn’t make any sense to worry too much about the footprint of that power. But if you’re in Denver, Colorado or in the mountains, our power is predominantly generated with coal and natural gas. And so that’s the fossil fuel.
Tessa Murry (29:18.314)
Thank
Tessa Murry (29:23.552)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (29:36.058)
So we’re looking to offset the use of that power with the rooftop solar. If we are a net zero house and we’re all electric, we are by definition zero operational carbon.
Tessa Murry (29:38.336)
What?
Tessa Murry (29:46.398)
Re-init, zero, zero.
Gene Myers (29:58.138)
That’s why we focus so much on PV solar. Now, is there an embodied carbon footprint of the solar panel? Yes, there is. That’s what you were talking about. So that’s the next bucket. So then here’s a question. So which do you think is more important? The carbon footprint that it takes to operate the house for 100 years.
Tessa Murry (30:07.42)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Tessa Murry (30:20.128)
you.
Gene Myers (30:27.544)
or however long that house lives, or the first embodied carbon, are the emissions associated with the products that are put into the house? And the answer is that over time, operational carbon’s bigger. And so that’s why you could make a judgment call, that it’s better to use a solar panel that has an embodied carbon footprint.
Tessa Murry (30:35.872)
Thanks.
Tessa Murry (30:48.128)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (30:56.216)
if it offsets that long-term operational.
Tessa Murry (31:00.318)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (31:00.93)
you.
Gene Myers (31:01.136)
So then we get into embodied carbon and that is, what is the carbon? So the emissions associated with manufacturing and delivering all of the products that are in the house, that’s embodied carbon.
Reuben Saltzman (31:17.442)
And that’s what you’re talking about when you talk about concrete having such a heavy footprint. It’s the embodied carbon footprint.
Gene Myers (31:20.805)
Yes.
So that is a gnarly issue to calculate. So we, and it’s way beyond my pay grade, but thank goodness we had a great partner at University of Denver that took our very first carbon neutral house. And there are seven, probably more, but we chose seven carbon calculating platforms, digital platforms.
Tessa Murry (31:24.288)
Thank
Reuben Saltzman (31:27.832)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tessa Murry (31:29.386)
Mm-hmm.
Reuben Saltzman (31:32.652)
Okay.
Gene Myers (31:53.552)
for calculating the embodied carbon of a house. And we took our first house and and University of Denver calculated the embodied carbon in all seven of those platforms. And we got wildly different answers, which drives me up the wall, but we got wildly different answers. But what University of Denver did for us is they concluded that here’s the best one to use for
Reuben Saltzman (32:13.166)
I bet.
Tessa Murry (32:17.119)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (32:23.224)
And we came up with OneClick LCA. So LCA stands for Life Cycle Analysis. So I had done a trip to the UK and Sweden. They’re ahead of us in this. And that’s the system that they use is OneClick LCA. So we’ve been using OneClick LCA for calculating our embodied carbon. And we’ve been using DU students.
Tessa Murry (32:48.256)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (32:53.658)
to do the work, to take the houses that we build and plug it into one-click LCA and come over that embodied carbon. so I think our best example right now is the project I mentioned up in Breckenridge. It’s a 61-unit workforce housing project. It is net zero energy and zero carbon from both the…
Tessa Murry (32:56.092)
Yeah, smart.
Tessa Murry (33:04.688)
So, yeah.
Tessa Murry (33:18.84)
Wow.
Gene Myers (33:21.408)
operational carbon and embodied carbon sin.
Reuben Saltzman (33:23.736)
How do you get a zero carbon?
Gene Myers (33:26.544)
So I mentioned that on the operational carbon, from that standpoint, if it’s net zero energy and all electric, and you’re creating all your electricity on the roof, that’s how you do that. And then the way you do embodied carbon is you calculate the footprint and you buy an offset. So there is a global market. It’s UN certified.
Reuben Saltzman (33:38.922)
Okay. Okay. Sure.
Gene Myers (33:56.432)
for buying carbon offsets. I’m very queasy about that. We bought a carbon offset for this idea home for ProBuilder Magazine and that offset had offsets in Indonesia and in Kenya and all over the world. And it’s like, really? Are we sure that that’s really, are they doing something that will offset the carbon of that house?
And so in Breckenridge, the town had the same queasiness that we did. And so we went on to the carbon market. We figured out what the offset would cost, and we put that into what amounts to a carbon fund for the town of Breckenridge to do the offset. So here’s an example. They take that money and they put a solar array on a school.
Tessa Murry (34:27.305)
Thank
Tessa Murry (34:46.784)
you
Tessa Murry (34:53.032)
okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (34:54.424)
Gotcha.
Gene Myers (34:54.532)
That’s an offset. Another offset would be, we have a terrible pine beetle epidemic in Colorado and reforestation would be a great carbon offset where we could take the money that we would have spent on an offset and spend that on reforestation and those trees would soak up the carbon over time.
that was associated with the building of that house. So that’s how you get to zero.
Reuben Saltzman (35:24.332)
Okay. That makes a lot more sense now, but it’s like, has to be a carbon footprint here if you’re a house, but okay.
Tessa Murry (35:26.144)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (35:32.304)
Well, and it’s interesting, and I don’t remember, Tessa, if we talked about this at EBA, but I want to believe that customers really care about that.
Gene Myers (35:47.248)
We were at a management retreat. There are only four of us who own the company. We were up at a management retreat a year ago last summer. My son, Stephen, who’s our CEO, basically said, you know, is it possible that our value proposition is of more value to a municipality with a carbon action plan than it is to a customer? And the answer is yes.
And so that’s how we got that project. The town had these goals and we were the only builder that could come to them and say, here’s a legitimate way for us to meet those goals.
Reuben Saltzman (36:18.094)
you
Tessa Murry (36:29.76)
You’re thinking, and we were talking about this with Sam Rashkin, yeah, you’re thinking bigger picture systemically of, you know, when we’re building a house, the impact on not only just the occupant, but like also the environment and the world. And how do we, how do we improve that and make that better? So yeah, that’s inspiring.
Reuben Saltzman (36:32.512)
Makes perfect sense. Yes.
Reuben Saltzman (36:46.456)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (36:50.64)
Well, this is our little corner of the world. Now, can a builder like us…
really change the world? And the answer is no. You know, we’re this little bitty builder in the world. And yet, wherever there’s a dot where Thrive Home Builder is,
Tessa Murry (37:08.224)
You’re paving the way though.
Gene Myers (37:16.954)
We are reversing climate change.
Tessa Murry (37:20.734)
Mm-hmm.
Gene Myers (37:22.15)
because most of the climate goals out there in the world are to take us back to 2005. Well, if our houses go all the way to zero, it’s way past 2005. It’s like we never existed. And so it’s a
I think it’s important to us, you know, and hopefully important to enough other people out there. By the way, every city in town that we build in Colorado has a climate action plan. Every one of them is trying to get to net zero carbon somewhere in the 2030 to 2035 range. I don’t think they’ll make it, but maybe by 2050.
Tessa Murry (37:57.588)
Wow.
Tessa Murry (38:07.175)
Thanks.
Gene Myers (38:11.846)
And even our utility, which is big up in Minnesota, Xcel Energy is our largest investor-owned utility in the state of Colorado. They have a goal of being 30 % renewable energy by 2030. And so we’re moving in the right direction, but it’s really important for us to build models for how to get there. And that’s kind of what we’re doing for home builders is we’re
We’re experimenting and there are things we wouldn’t do next time. But we’re pushing the envelope on what a production home builder can do. And by the way, buildings contribute. I’ve seen different numbers, but somewhere between 15 and 30 percent of global emissions is buildings. So if we get back on the track, which we will,
Tessa Murry (38:42.058)
So.
Gene Myers (39:10.65)
We’ll have to. If the country gets back on the track of really trying to reduce our emissions and address climate change, our industry will not be overlooked because it’s too big of a contributor. And so I would much rather go out there and figure this out than wait for a government to tell me how to do it.
Tessa Murry (39:25.204)
Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (39:30.252)
Yeah. Would you mind just giving me a rundown of what your houses look like? Because you talked about solar panels. We got that check. You’ve got the composite foundation fiberglass composite foundation walls. Got that. What else are you doing that’s different from your traditional builder?
Tessa Murry (39:31.568)
Yes.
Gene Myers (39:53.604)
These houses look just like anybody else’s. They have to, they have to, because we have to sell them to a customer. And our customers have a, I often will say, and you know, I, let me do a disclaimer. I’m an engineer by training. So take all my marketing advice with a, with a grain of salt, but I believe that we’re born almost with a DNA about what a house should.
Reuben Saltzman (39:57.794)
They look like it. Okay.
Reuben Saltzman (40:04.261)
huh.
Tessa Murry (40:05.088)
Thank
Gene Myers (40:24.632)
as a roof like this.
We once had an ad campaign.
where we were building marvels of technology disguised as beautiful traditional homes. And that kind of encapsulates what we’re doing. So these homes have to be beautiful. They have to be emotionally appealing. As an engineer, I want to believe that everybody’s going to do a real analysis about which house they buy. They fall in love with houses.
Tessa Murry (40:43.456)
Thank
Tessa Murry (41:04.254)
Mm-hmm.
Gene Myers (41:04.632)
And so buying a home is an inherently emotional experience. And so there’s actually a limit to how much we talk about all of this with our customers. We’ll go there with a customer if they’re interested in it. But they didn’t come to our model homes to get educated on building science. They came to buy a house. And our job is not to evangelize what we’re doing. Our job is to sell that house. And so
Tessa Murry (41:26.014)
Mm-hmm.
Gene Myers (41:35.642)
But we’ll get feedback from them like, this house is so quiet. Well, you know, that might be our R40 building envelope and it might be better windows. Or a comment we frequently get is, your house just feels a lot more solid than everybody else’s. And we think what that really is is a lack of vibration.
Tessa Murry (42:02.036)
Hmm
Gene Myers (42:02.608)
that comes from being super insulated and all of those things. And the one thing that we don’t have to educate people about is health. They walk in the door and we know that every one of them wants to address health. And so we’ve been, they have this recognition called the EPA Indoor Air Plus Leader Award. We’ve won several of those.
we, we sell that indoor air quality as health in the home because our customers, so they relate to health in the home and, we could get into all the ways we do that, but the way we actually describe it is we give you the peace of mind of doing the peace of mind of knowing you’ve done all you can for the people you love. That is the.
Reuben Saltzman (42:41.582)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (43:00.262)
value proposition of a healthy home. And we did a house several years ago that shocked us. mean, we do a few beauty contests for houses and we kind of quit entering the ones in California because they have these categories of like single family house from 2000 to 2500 square feet.
Tessa Murry (43:10.43)
So we’ll see you
Tessa Murry (43:16.49)
Thank
Gene Myers (43:29.498)
Well, in California, that house is $3 million. And in our world, that was $700,000. Which one has more blame, do you think? And so I’d kind of given up on this one competition at the Pacific Coast Builder Conference called the Gold Nugget Awards. And we built this house during COVID.
Tessa Murry (43:39.134)
Gene Myers (43:52.802)
And it had filtration in the house that would actually filter out the coronavirus. And it had a floor plan for living, working, playing at home. And it had even outdoor areas where this was a new urbanist community. So a front porch up and separated by more than six feet from the sidewalk. So you could still interact with your neighbors.
So, you know, it’s about time to go to this conference. It’s Pacific Coast Builder Conference. And our architect entered this house in the Gold Nugget Awards. And we’re thinking, you know, it’s an exercise in futility. There’s no masonry on this house. This is all one kind of siding. It’s one color. It’s a simple, but a beautiful house.
And so we get to our category and it’s funny, we just at the last minute decided to even go and we must’ve been, we’re at the last row of tables in this huge event space at the Moscone Center in San Francisco. And so we must’ve been the last people to get tickets. so our category comes up and we win. so.
We’re walking up with the architect and we’ll say, you do the talking, you entered this. And so he does the talking. We go back and we’re thinking, and these are boring. These are terribly boring events. And so we’re thinking, well, we’re on the back row. We could just duck out, but maybe out of courtesy, we should wait. So they get to house of the year and they start talking about our house. And I almost.
Tessa Murry (45:25.888)
Thank
Tessa Murry (45:40.18)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (45:42.514)
fell over. And the judges, it chokes me up to retell this, but the comments from the judges were that perhaps we should stop judging beauty as only being skin deep in these houses. And here’s a house that really sets a different standard for how to serve the customer.
Reuben Saltzman (45:45.824)
Whoa.
Tessa Murry (46:02.847)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (46:11.504)
how to protect them, how to help them thrive, it gets back to our name. you know, we have a slogan and our slogan is to set a new standard for how home improves life. And that’s what that house did. I was, you can tell I’m rarely speechless, but I was really overwhelmed that
Tessa Murry (46:26.976)
Mm-hmm.
Tessa Murry (46:35.465)
It’s just.
Hmm.
Gene Myers (46:38.724)
that little very simple, beautiful home, just to eat those awards. what’s the lesson? I think the lesson is that our industry, at least in some way, is becoming more responsible. That we really can do more. We can do more to save the planet. We can do more.
Tessa Murry (46:42.656)
Thanks.
Gene Myers (47:06.106)
to serve our customers. We can do more to be an asset to the communities where we build. that in our way, we can make a difference. And I used to say, well, making a difference is so important to our young employees. And then it dawned on me, making a difference is important to all of our employees because we all work here and we invest so much of our lives. Don’t we want to do that?
Tessa Murry (47:11.71)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (47:34.606)
in a way that has meaning and impact. And of course we do, everyone does. And so all this is what I call building a brand. So we build houses, but our houses build a brand. And our brand, we’re a small builder, but that brand is a big brand in home building. We punch way above our weight. And it’s because it stands for something.
Tessa Murry (47:40.736)
Mm-hmm.
Gene Myers (48:03.906)
and has stood for something for all these decades and has never changed and has never veered away from it. And, you know, when the market ebbs and flows, somehow we hang on. It’s ebbing right now. And when the politics ebb and flow on the programs, we just stay with it. And in the end,
Reuben Saltzman (48:09.848)
Hmm.
Tessa Murry (48:21.47)
Mm-hmm.
Gene Myers (48:31.846)
It’s about building a durable brand that has meaning. And that’s, think, my, if I have a proud accomplishment, that’s it. Thrive Home Builders means something to people who know who we are. And I would encourage builders who are listening or anyone, know, a home inspector, anyone building a company, think about your brand.
Tessa Murry (48:50.249)
Mm-hmm.
Gene Myers (49:01.072)
Think about what really matters and then be true to your brand and stick with it. And you know, I was sharing with a fellow builder years ago that the first 15 years we worked really hard on the brand. The last 15 years, the brand has worked really hard for us. That’s how we got the project at Breckenridge is because I went up there to talk to the city council and
Tessa Murry (49:22.943)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (49:30.438)
I had my handy PowerPoint with me and well, would you like me to fire up my PowerPoint and tell you a little about who we are? And they said, we know who you
Tessa Murry (49:39.082)
So, so, so, so, so, so,
Gene Myers (49:40.026)
We want to talk to you about carbon neutrality. Okay. But that’s maybe what we’ve, the most important thing we’ve built.
Tessa Murry (49:55.59)
You say the challenges that you faced early on as a builder were very different than the ones that you face now. In the beginning, what were some of the biggest challenges for you compared to what do you think they are in today’s world?
Gene Myers (50:09.356)
You know, I think training our subcontractors was really tough in the beginning.
They think doing a good job is meeting code. And when this crazy builder tells them they have to do something else, that was difficult. Getting appraisals used to be really difficult. It’s not so hard now, but it would pour a lot more into these houses and then not get paid for it because we couldn’t get an appraisal. so the…
Tessa Murry (50:29.94)
Mm-hmm.
Tessa Murry (50:34.73)
Hmm.
Tessa Murry (50:43.444)
Hmm.
Gene Myers (50:45.034)
that was challenging. That’s much less of a challenge. Now there’s a such thing as a green appraisal that as a builder, can demand that and, and insist that, the appraiser be qualified to, appraise your house. So those were two, big challenges. What’s never been a challenge is attracting people to the company because,
Tessa Murry (50:47.592)
Yeah.
Tessa Murry (50:53.418)
Hmm. Hmm.
Gene Myers (51:13.188)
You know, even in times of great labor shortage, people are attracted to a job that has meaning and they feel like that even if they’re in the accounting department, they’re doing something really important. I’d say those are two of the biggies, Tessa.
Tessa Murry (51:28.874)
Thank
Tessa Murry (51:32.496)
Okay. I guess we should probably wrap up soon, but one of my final questions, and I’ll let Ruben, if you’ve got any more to, feel free to jump in after. But what do you see as kind some of the biggest hurdles for the building industry moving forward? And where do you think that the next big frontier is? Do you think we’re going to be…
talking about electrification or embodied carbon or resilience potentially as being the biggest challenges moving forward.
Gene Myers (52:08.774)
It’s all of the above. Affordability is the number one challenge of the industry. We’re building homes people can’t afford. you know, interest rates really mask that problem. We had a huge run up in costs, but we had such low interest rates. Houses still sold. And then when interest rates went up, it kind of exposed the affordability challenge that we have.
Tessa Murry (52:17.235)
Eh-heh.
Tessa Murry (52:36.544)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (52:37.862)
Resilience is a huge issue. Even the availability of insurance. So Tessa, if you’re in Florida, you know all about insurance challenges. And there may come a time when we pick our land in places where the first question we ask is, can we insure a house here? In our case here in Colorado, wildfires is a big risk.
Tessa Murry (52:44.032)
Thank
Tessa Murry (52:57.758)
Yeah.
Tessa Murry (53:03.839)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (53:04.678)
And so I think the insurance challenge is new to the industry, but I think it, and you know it, Eva, it was a huge topic. So I think the industry can step up and address that and make a difference. And so I think that’s a big challenge. I think electrification and heat pump technology and all those things. I know it’s not.
Tessa Murry (53:13.195)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tessa Murry (53:19.872)
Bye.
Gene Myers (53:32.454)
popular right now to talk about climate change. I know that our government’s focus is really not only just moved away from it, it’s almost anti that. And yet my belief is that the fires will continue to burn, the hurricanes will continue to hit, and that over the course of years, we have to meet that challenge. And so
Tessa Murry (53:44.618)
Thank
Gene Myers (54:01.574)
I think electrification is a way to address climate action in our industry. And so I think that will continue to be a really big challenge. the solutions have to be cost effective. And so that we’re not killing affordability just by spending our way to solutions like this.
Tessa Murry (54:20.817)
Mm-hmm.
Tessa Murry (54:29.344)
That’s the challenge.
Gene Myers (54:29.374)
And that’s where the creativity and the determination of builders has to really come through in order to meet those challenges.
Tessa Murry (54:36.928)
Thank
Tessa Murry (54:41.708)
Well, Gene, we could keep going. We’ve got so many more questions for you. Maybe we’ll have a part two here. We’re a bunch of nerds, Gene. We could dive into, okay, tell us, are you putting in air exchangers? What type? ERVs? Are you doing… We could get into the…
Reuben Saltzman (54:46.54)
Yeah.
Reuben Saltzman (54:56.684)
Yeah, are you, is it all electric or do you use a gas? How much customization do you offer? I’ve got so many more questions. We got, it’s a lot more than two minutes worth.
Gene Myers (54:56.806)
Oh yeah, we’re doing all that. Yeah. Yeah.
Tessa Murry (55:01.344)
I
Gene Myers (55:03.302)
for it,
Tessa Murry (55:03.858)
Yes, I know.
It is. It is. So we’ll have to have you back on, Gene. But I just wanted to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on our show and to share kind of your insights and your experience as a builder. Kind of on the, you know, I feel like leading this movement that we are slow. So the industry is slow to change, slow to evolve. And I feel like we’re at this precipice where we need to change how we’re doing things.
or we’re not going to make it. And you are kind of figuring this out as you go. And I think you’re an inspiration to other builders that potentially want to get into this industry and want to make a difference and want to build a good house that’s good for the planet, good for the occupants. And you figured out a way to do it. And it doesn’t take rocket science, maybe an engineering degree, but you figured it out. And you’ve got all these, you know,
people around you and great resources you’ve tapped in to make that possible. So you’re just, you’re showing other people that we can do it. I appreciate, appreciate what you’re doing for the world and, and I’ll wrap.
Gene Myers (56:19.174)
Well, shared at EBA, I think I shared with Tessa that I just bought a 1910 house. And your audience knows a lot more about what to do with that than I do. And so if we do a part two, I want to ask the questions because I just got a new sewer line. Guess what? It was a hundred plus year old sewer line. how do we, and you know, I don’t know what you talked with Sam Rashkin about.
what he’s working on is what do we do with the tens of millions of existing homes to move the meter? And so I’m learning what you guys already know about all of that. And it’s gonna be a fun challenge for me to, how do you insulate a double brick wall with no, with just air space in between the bricks?
Reuben Saltzman (57:07.299)
Yeah.
Tessa Murry (57:08.426)
Yeah
Tessa Murry (57:16.608)
Well, you got to look at cost effectiveness and carbon footprint. Maybe it’s not. Maybe it’s other methods of making that house more comfortable and more efficient.
Reuben Saltzman (57:18.539)
Or do you?
Reuben Saltzman (57:23.458)
Yes. Yes.
Gene Myers (57:23.494)
There you go.
Gene Myers (57:27.598)
So I say that just, you know, I hope your audience enjoyed what we talked about, but I have great respect for what most of your audience really does out there to try to make things better in that existing housing stock. It is the biggest housing challenge that we have is how do we take our existing housing stock and move the meter on that.
Tessa Murry (57:48.832)
Thank you.
Tessa Murry (57:54.688)
Yeah. Maybe you’ll open up a secondary business out of retirement, Gene, to serve the existing home market. You figure out the new home market.
Reuben Saltzman (57:55.586)
Yeah.
Gene Myers (58:04.134)
I’m too too much of a glut for punishment. I don’t know what the R word is, so we’ll see.
Reuben Saltzman (58:08.974)
Gene, where can people find you?
Tessa Murry (58:11.075)
Uhhh
Gene Myers (58:14.042)
Well, you know, we’re at thrivehomebuilders.com and you know, I’m not, I’m a digital dinosaur. So that’s maybe the best way is just to reach out through our website. And I appreciate the opportunity to be on and thank you very much for having me. I’ve enjoyed a lot.
Tessa Murry (58:25.472)
Thank
Reuben Saltzman (58:38.958)
Thank you so much for coming on the show. This is fantastic. And for the listeners, if you got questions for me or Tessa, you’re welcome to email us. It’s podcast at StructureTech.com and we will catch you next time. Thank you.
Tessa Murry (58:39.242)
Thanks, Gene.
Tessa Murry (58:53.524)
Thanks.
Gene Myers (58:54.8)
Bye bye.